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  1. #31
    Astonishing Member Of Atlantis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cyberhubbs View Post
    How much does Marvel really push their comics to adhere to the movies? When Amazing Spider-Man came out, Slott did a Lizard arc. But it didn't follow the movie beats beyond the villain.

    Seems to be little things here and there. Maybe sometimes if word comes down from on high that they wanna push some character.
    I assume that in Thor and Captain America's case, they figured the hype surrounding their announcements would end of benefiting them better financially than trying to appeal to potential fans wanting to read the characters because of their interest in the movies.

    Simply put, they assumed one option would get them loads more attention, resulting in loads more interest, leading to loads more sales.
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  2. #32
    Extraordinary Member ExodusCloak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1984 View Post
    Just wondered if anyone was feeling the same.

    I know Marvel are doing really well right now, so I assume I am probably in the minority. But I just cannot get myself to care about All New All Different at all!!!! Weird thing is I can't really put my finger on why. The only titles I'm looking to pick up are the ones which are largely unchanged from before Secret Wars. Maybe it's because I almost completely ignored Secret Wars so haven't had the build up to ANAD, maybe it's because I'm largely an X fan and feel ANAD has kind of derailed everything there. I try and look forward to books like Totally Awesome Hulk, or the many new spider books and I just really don't feel interested.

    If anyone else feels the same, why do you think this is, could be because of the mass relaunch. I didn't really feel like this with DCs latest relaunch and still pick up many DC titles.
    I thought you were going to say I know I'm in the minority but damn these minorities being my Captain America, Hulk, Thor, Wolverine etc... but then other posters hijacked your thread to say that very thing. The irony.

  3. #33
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    I don't care about ANAD or the Marvel Universe as a whole, but I do care about and enjoy a few of the books. Those books are Mighty Thor, Doctor Strange, Invincible Iron Man, and Black Widow (when it releases eventually).

    My hope is that the few Marvel books I am picking up aren't involved in any crossovers.

  4. #34
    Astonishing Member cranger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by penthotal View Post
    About the reboot thing…a rebot is said to be:

    In serial fiction, to reboot means to discard all continuity in an established series in order to recreate its characters, timeline and backstory from the beginning
    That is just one attempt to define something that is being used by many people with differing views of what it means. By that definition, CoIE and New 52 were not reboots since they never went back to the beginning for everything and plenty of stuff was still considered to have happened still. I think for a lot of people a reboot happens when there is a significant break in continuity as well as major status quo changes to characters, and arguing about whether they are right or wrong about that is probably futile.
    Quote Originally Posted by CSTowle View Post
    Again, that's stuff's all temporary. You can't have 60 continuous years of monthly serialized adventures starring one guy beating people up without switching things up temporarily from time to time. It keeps things fresh, and makes you pine for the old guys/gals. Used to be it was another white man taking the place of the original white man, now it's open to anyone. And it's a temp job, so don't worry. The real Thor/Cap/whatever will be back all too soon.
    It has always been open to anyone, although there may have been fewer "non-white men" to fill in at various times, but it usually just happened with maybe a big blurb on the cover. It was, while always probably a stunt intended to drive sales, something that happened while reading the comic. Now it happens in the media, and when done as part of one of these "ALL NEW..." pushes it is a little hard not to see it as being much more calculated and orchestrated then as just a natural extension of the stories the writers were already coming up. And that is not just these more controversial character changes, but the changes to the line as a whole. While comics have always adapted to changes in audience tastes, it was usually gradual or seemless, now it is much more drastic and in some cases too often. There is no more illusion of following a continuous story, now one is just left to wonder how long before Marvel needs to shake it all up again.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Of Atlantis View Post
    I assume that in Thor and Captain America's case, they figured the hype surrounding their announcements would end of benefiting them better financially than trying to appeal to potential fans wanting to read the characters because of their interest in the movies.

    Simply put, they assumed one option would get them loads more attention, resulting in loads more interest, leading to loads more sales.
    It's certainly a case-by-case issue, which is my point. There's no hard, concrete rule.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by cranger View Post
    That is just one attempt to define something that is being used by many people with differing views of what it means. By that definition, CoIE and New 52 were not reboots since they never went back to the beginning for everything and plenty of stuff was still considered to have happened still. I think for a lot of people a reboot happens when there is a significant break in continuity as well as major status quo changes to characters, and arguing about whether they are right or wrong about that is probably futile.

    It has always been open to anyone, although there may have been fewer "non-white men" to fill in at various times, but it usually just happened with maybe a big blurb on the cover. It was, while always probably a stunt intended to drive sales, something that happened while reading the comic. Now it happens in the media, and when done as part of one of these "ALL NEW..." pushes it is a little hard not to see it as being much more calculated and orchestrated then as just a natural extension of the stories the writers were already coming up. And that is not just these more controversial character changes, but the changes to the line as a whole. While comics have always adapted to changes in audience tastes, it was usually gradual or seemless, now it is much more drastic and in some cases too often. There is no more illusion of following a continuous story, now one is just left to wonder how long before Marvel needs to shake it all up again.
    New 52 had characters meeting again for the first time. JLA coming together for the first time. It's a soft reboot if nothing else.

    ANAD made jumps in time, but everything is still an extension of pre-SW. Even Cho's Hulk is an extension of where he'd left off before the world ended.

  7. #37
    Fantastic Member KingsLeadHat's Avatar
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    I don't fault the actual writing/art talent. I think it's as strong on the front as it's ever been. Hell, I don't even fault the editors. The problem is the publishing strategies. Eventually, the constant events and #1's force readers to tap out, even those who have grudgingly been holding on. Diversity is great, but it's a sad testament that Marvel was actually more progressive in the 60's and 70's in terms of introducing non-legacy ethnic characters. Giant-Size X-Men #1 alone was more progressive than anything Marvel is doing today.

    Also, it was a hell of a lot easier to shrug your shoulder's and go with the flow when comics were .75 cents or a buck. Ironically, given the decompression, individual issues are more disposable than ever yet the price is far too inflated to justify that old Marvel brand loyalty. The only sane way to read comics anymore is to wait for the trade and buy said trade from a discount site.

  8. #38
    Veteran Member CSTowle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cranger View Post
    It has always been open to anyone, although there may have been fewer "non-white men" to fill in at various times, but it usually just happened with maybe a big blurb on the cover. It was, while always probably a stunt intended to drive sales, something that happened while reading the comic. Now it happens in the media, and when done as part of one of these "ALL NEW..." pushes it is a little hard not to see it as being much more calculated and orchestrated then as just a natural extension of the stories the writers were already coming up. And that is not just these more controversial character changes, but the changes to the line as a whole. While comics have always adapted to changes in audience tastes, it was usually gradual or seemless, now it is much more drastic and in some cases too often. There is no more illusion of following a continuous story, now one is just left to wonder how long before Marvel needs to shake it all up again.
    First bolded: No, I really don't think we get a female Thor or a black Captain America for more than a one-off stunt issue in the '60s or '70s. I don't think it was open to everyone, by a long shot.

    Second bolded: While some transitions were built up and seemed planned with these temporary fill-ins, a lot of them were developed quickly or not at all. Falcon teaming up with Cap and being second banana for over 40 years leading to him wearing the costume for a little while seems like a heck of a lot of build-up. Not so much as Dick taking over as Batman, but as close as Marvel's going to come.

    Jane as Thor, you could argue there's nobody as tied to Thor as Jane. Including Donald Blake.

    Azrael as Batman? Kyle as GL? Artemis as Wonder Woman? DC had a bit of an identity crisis in the mid-'90s (but had the good sense not to rape anyone, that time around), but you get my point.
    Formerly finfangfool

  9. #39
    Astonishing Member cranger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CSTowle View Post
    First bolded: No, I really don't think we get a female Thor or a black Captain America for more than a one-off stunt issue in the '60s or '70s. I don't think it was open to everyone, by a long shot.

    Second bolded: While some transitions were built up and seemed planned with these temporary fill-ins, a lot of them were developed quickly or not at all. Falcon teaming up with Cap and being second banana for over 40 years leading to him wearing the costume for a little while seems like a heck of a lot of build-up. Not so much as Dick taking over as Batman, but as close as Marvel's going to come.

    Jane as Thor, you could argue there's nobody as tied to Thor as Jane. Including Donald Blake.

    Azrael as Batman? Kyle as GL? Artemis as Wonder Woman? DC had a bit of an identity crisis in the mid-'90s (but had the good sense not to rape anyone, that time around), but you get my point.
    I don't think we really ever saw any replacements of anyone with anyone that were not one-off stunts, especially in that time when most characters were still being created. As you point out, typically the replacement is a character already affiliated with the main, such as when Falcon did replace Captain America for a story or Jim Rhodes took over as Iron Man. Also, with two of the biggest teams, X-Men and Avengers, being lead by Storm and Captain Marvel respectively back in the 80s, I just think the door has been open quite a long time.

    As for Falcon and Jane, it makes complete sense to me. If some story indicated that there would be someone taking over the roles of Captain America or Thor, those might just be my first guesses (they, in fact, were). So I am not arguing there is not some history here to support these characters getting showcased in these books, just that all of these happening at the exact same time is easy to be looked at cynically.

  10. #40
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    Honestly I feel like the old Marvel U was so all over the place I'm looking forward to getting back to basics. All the characters were in dissaray and everything was just dark in general. I really want to see my heroes start being heroes again and saving the day, which is almost explicitly what they are aiming for the the Avengers being "Earth's Most Dedicated Heroes."

  11. #41
    Incredible Member autbey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bdez90 View Post
    I really want to see my heroes start being heroes again and saving the day
    I'm all for that but they seemed determined to make Cyclops the most hated character ever among the other heroes.

  12. #42
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    Only book that's clicked with me so far is The Vision.
    The others I've been checking out have potential but there's nothing that I love yet.

    At least the books I've been reading pre-ANAD haven't changed much.
    Ms Marvel, Howard the Duck and Squirrel Girl are still super fun.
    . My Little Pony . ASM: Renew your Vows . Ms Marvel . Generation X . Doom Patrol . Super Man . The Flash . Hal Jordan and the Green Lantern Corps . Trinity . Teen Titans . Super Sons . Mister Miracle . Saga . Paper Girls .

  13. #43
    Veteran Member CSTowle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cranger View Post
    I don't think we really ever saw any replacements of anyone with anyone that were not one-off stunts, especially in that time when most characters were still being created. As you point out, typically the replacement is a character already affiliated with the main, such as when Falcon did replace Captain America for a story or Jim Rhodes took over as Iron Man. Also, with two of the biggest teams, X-Men and Avengers, being lead by Storm and Captain Marvel respectively back in the 80s, I just think the door has been open quite a long time.

    As for Falcon and Jane, it makes complete sense to me. If some story indicated that there would be someone taking over the roles of Captain America or Thor, those might just be my first guesses (they, in fact, were). So I am not arguing there is not some history here to support these characters getting showcased in these books, just that all of these happening at the exact same time is easy to be looked at cynically.
    The thing about Storm and Monica was they had strong, respected writers championing them. Claremont for Storm, Stern for Rambeau. Storm developed over the years from a lighthearted free spirit to a strong, competent leader and the heart of the team (sadly didn't fit into the Morrison scheme and so the writers aping his style 10 years on have continued to ignore her). And Claremont was allowed to do this in the context of taking a formerly defunct property and turning it into the biggest franchise in comics. Stern just straight up did it with Monica, and while he did a great job writing her and fleshing her out he did get a lot of pushback from fandom both for using the name Captain Marvel and for making her head of the Avengers very quickly. If anything that hurt her to the point where she wasn't used much for decades, and has only recently been getting major panel time (thanks Warren Ellis).
    Formerly finfangfool

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by cranger View Post
    I don't think we really ever saw any replacements of anyone with anyone that were not one-off stunts, especially in that time when most characters were still being created. As you point out, typically the replacement is a character already affiliated with the main, such as when Falcon did replace Captain America for a story or Jim Rhodes took over as Iron Man. Also, with two of the biggest teams, X-Men and Avengers, being lead by Storm and Captain Marvel respectively back in the 80s, I just think the door has been open quite a long time.

    As for Falcon and Jane, it makes complete sense to me. If some story indicated that there would be someone taking over the roles of Captain America or Thor, those might just be my first guesses (they, in fact, were).
    The doors were open for many and then got shut in their faces as time went by.

    As fewer places stop selling comics and more competition popped a lot of characters got screwed. All it takes is ONE editor or writer to dislike a character and that is it.

    Falcon benefited from constant use not only in comics with Avengers, Captain America, one shots and merchandise. Same with Rhodey.

    Storm was in the same boat as Falcon but her solo development got stuck. While Falcon could headline an entire issue of Avengers by himself or get back ups in Capt America. Storm didn't get that. Then came a certain marriage that not all over Marvel supported-you had her done one way under Hudlin & MCDuffie and another way under everyone else.



    So I am not arguing there is not some history here to support these characters getting showcased in these books, just that all of these happening at the exact same time is easy to be looked at cynically.
    I think that is more of observing the competition. How many established characters are missing at DC? Especially those of color?

    They are taking advantage of that by being the big company that is more diverse. We can ALL agree certain things could have been done different. Maybe a Falcon book would have been better than his as Cap but most of us can think of reasons why that wasn't done.

    Pushing more established minorities might have gotten dashed after the failure of Storm. It's not HER fault but you can't background fodder and limit development on a character and expect a solo to work.

    But at least here aside from Eli Bradley-no one here has to ask where is blank as much as they have to at DC.

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1984 View Post
    Just wondered if anyone was feeling the same.

    I know Marvel are doing really well right now, so I assume I am probably in the minority. But I just cannot get myself to care about All New All Different at all!!!! Weird thing is I can't really put my finger on why. The only titles I'm looking to pick up are the ones which are largely unchanged from before Secret Wars. Maybe it's because I almost completely ignored Secret Wars so haven't had the build up to ANAD, maybe it's because I'm largely an X fan and feel ANAD has kind of derailed everything there. I try and look forward to books like Totally Awesome Hulk, or the many new spider books and I just really don't feel interested.

    If anyone else feels the same, why do you think this is, could be because of the mass relaunch. I didn't really feel like this with DCs latest relaunch and still pick up many DC titles.
    You said it.
    Since "Avengers Disassembled" the Avengers titles have been awesome and "smart" unlike some of the lighter titles. Dark Avengers, The Sentry, The Illuminati, cool cosmic stuff, good adult writing. New Avengers, Mighty Avengers, the Red Hulk team, all excellent.

    Now suddenly it feels like a kids book, cartoony and lame. What's really sucking is that many of the new titles have this same feel. I'm hating it. Dr Strange and Iron Man are looking good. But the go-to always high quality was Avengers books. As well as the All New X-Men and Gaurdians.

    All New X is lacking that quality also. What the heck is going on? It's really a gut punch, I never thought Marvel would do this? Are they aiming at a younger market?

    I don't know.

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