2nd Annual Namor the Sub-Mariner Advent Calendar

[Reviresco]

7 Days to Christmas

Unfortunately, Lorvex kidnaps Tamara in her tank, and his men take over the fleet, turning the mission to one of destruction.




Namor tracks down Lorvex and explains the duties of prince.




Lorvex defeated, the fleet back under his control, he orders their return to Atlantis. While Namor addresses the UN over the serious error of kidnapping Atlanteans. Reminding them that an Atlantis attacked is an Atlantis at war. Back home, the alien Tamara Rahn finds Namor's actions puzzling.




"No! Ne'er shall Atlantis strike a war's first blow.
There is no glory in war -- only death!"

[Reviresco]

From Defenders 14, where SS Nighthawk joined the Defenders in their fight against his former team mates, the SS, and is fatally injured in the fight.



Namor giving up some of his own lifeforce to save Nighthawk.

[Custodes]

Rev: I really liked Tamara. I thought she would be, finally, Namor's permanent mate. Dorma was dead then remember. Tamara is drawn quite well here. Didn't Steve Gerber write the book then? People were very unhappy when Bill left. And then he died.

Tamara was from "Zephyrland" (sp?) or something like that. An inter-dimensional underwater realm. Named after the God of Gentle breezes or West Winds. Not that it was explained thusly. No one asked, the first few issues, why an underwater realm would have a gentle breeze or be named after one. :-) Finally a writer in the letters column got it. Looked it up in the dictionary.

She was very warlike. Maybe stronger than Namor himself (originally.) Seemed a good fit. Of course, like all of Namor's mates, she betrayed him. Though several years and writers later. She was Namor's "girl" when that series ended. It was a sad day. I was 13 or so. My friend Ty Formel and I were gathered in our spot to read Prince Namor:The Savage Sub-Mariner in a large flagstone lined tree enclosure at the Country Club. It was early summer. The June issue(time-wise not on the cover....they were 4 months ahead then in the 70s.) We had our weekly pulls as it is now called. We called our spot:The Grotto of The Ancient after Namor's and the Atlantean's hallowed cave of Neptune. It was a place we could read, in semi-private but, not be harassed by non-comic, muggle-types. A clubhouse sort of.

And then the horrible betrayal....cancellation. We will always remember that day. Even worse it was a fill in story. They never actually got around to ending that series. We waited two whole months for a cliffhanger and it was a fill in???!!! And Namor still in the Reed Richards made costume to help him breath. Worst day ever. Or so I thought Until a few days ago.

So our favorite character was bookless. The bimonthly schedule they had recently adapted and Bill Everett's death (no more Bill Everett art) was bad enough. He popped up here and there. In The FF or Marvel's Two-In- One. But, it was not the same. News came he would get a new book. Then the Marvel's Super-Villain Team-up book. Better than nothing and they closed up some plot lines left open but, Namor was no villain! I guess Abe would be thrilled. Doom.

I used to draw the symbol of their unity in class, on the desk in pencil, when I was bored at school. Graffiti. The Trident and Lightening Bolt superimposed over each other, in a circular field with outside embellishment. That and the Blue Oyster Cult symbol. It was a good book....sometimes. When Betty Dean...long forgotten and turned Amphibian by Dr Hydra was killed...it shook me to the core. Poor Betty. What an ignoble end. To many things. And they were so happy on Hydrobase. Later used as Avengers Headquarters. And then sunk.

The Burn book was fun at the start. Not my Namor though. All that suited stuff. Then it went boring.

No...still awaiting a proper Namor ongoing book. It's been a long wait.

[Custodes]

And as a postscript, to the above, I note: Super Villain Team-Up pretty much ignored Tamara and Atlantean themes. So long on hold. Years later she turned traitor and tried to destroy Atlantis by aiding her world which was in danger. Namor betrayed. Of course they never really accepted a red-skin in Atlantis. Sad. They jobbed her stregnth levels here too.

[Custodes]

From Defenders 14, where SS Nighthawk joined the Defenders in their fight against his former team mates, the SS, and is fatally injured in the fight.



Namor giving up some of his own lifeforce to save Nighthawk.

I loved that issue. I loved the whole first few years of the Defenders especially Roy Thomas and my favorite the Steve Gerber run. Sal Buscema knew how to draw Namor as this picture shows. Those four were hard to beat. Ad the Silver Surfer and forget it. Roy put them together. When he was editor he tried so many new and experimental things. Iron Fist and Shang-Chi. The Mummy. Conan!!!

Poor Kyle. He was a super nice guy back then. He was always ignored and not taken seriously, except by the Defenders. His death was a tragedy. Nicest guy in the Marvel Universe, in the 70s. The Defenders were always breaking up and he was always so desperate to bring his friends back together.

These ersatz Nighthawks suck.

At least this page, and his fellow Defenders, gave him a few years of greatness before the real end.

[Abe]

Days 7 and 6 are just amazing... No need to comment them fully.

Let's just say that I'm really happy to have bought the Complete SVTU TPB last week : I just took a few glimpses into the book, but noticed something - heartbeat increasing!.. Is Tamara the beautiful Red One I saw in one issue capturing Doom - if I understood correctly the story? Lucky Doom... I think I knew her only by one Subby cover and one hilarious panel in the 365 Days Thread... Oh! I haven't seen your postscript Custodes. Maybe there are more than one Red One? Intriguing... Of course the death of Betty Dean will be a very bad moment in the reading - much worst than the "Droit du seigneur" storyline with Doom (this one makes laugh a lot... don't repeat it to Iron Maiden...)...

(Of course Doom is not a villain by the way. He's acting to save the Multiverse since his first appearance in FF5 : his time machine is so crucial for the fate of everything, and the longest story - mostly unknown - of Marvel Universe is his secret SVTU with Owen, as we all know. Sorry ! A bit of Latverian humour is always welcome. That's one of the teaching of the Master. I will reuse it in a few moments : I want to listen to my Blue Oyster Cult's albums. My English is better than ever () ! I hope I will be able to enjoy the lyrics now!)



Custodes. All your childhood memories are such a precious reading. Priceless. From "The Grotto of The Ancient" to the SVTU Graffiti. "The Trident and Lightening Bolt superimposed over each other, in a circular field with outside embellishment." Just amazing...

I really love the way Namor's fans deal with these memories. I'm talking about all of you who fell in love with the character reading his full runs while very young- and your age doesn't matter : the youngest ones among this elite fandom share this experience. It's not my case, I must confess it. I don't remember reading such stories in the other fandoms' posts - except something by Iron Maiden, exceptional as usual. And that particularity matches so perfectly the Namor theme of lost memories that it shows clearly all the symbolic powers of that absolutely brilliant creation.



I recently read something on the net about the childhood of Mignola. I can't find it for the moment. It was about his group of friends - a bunch of kids who named themselves I don't remember exactly how but the word "The Fly" is involved. And it's a still mysterious part of the prophecy that the whole Mignolaverse is supposed to tell... The guy is sourcing his works in his childhood memories... I just found this nice interview : https://thedissolve.com/features/int...lms-that-most/ about the movies that influenced his creation (he made designs for Coppola's Dracula btw, kinda related to the point I'm trying to make). I wanted to wrote a few words about the character of Abe Sapien, how it must be related to Namor - which Mignola drew in his early days - because of the lost memories and of Atlantis. Then celebrate the influence of Bill Everett on a creator mostly associated to his friend Jack Kirby. But reading that Moby Dick was one of the movies which inspired him, I do wonder if the name "Ahab" had also an influence of the name "Abe"...

The poor Hellboy died not so long ago. He's in Hell now. So sad...
Nevertheless, he still has the chance to keep on living in an universe
built by is loving father around him, and in order to take care of him
- unlike the poor Namor, the orphan prince...

Moby Dick story as a metaphor about the memory? Why not, of course? And that's what Namor is all about : dealing with all the dangers hidden deep in the ocean of our psychic life... A true magical power. Not forgotten. Never Lost. I know that he doesn't need a book to stay more alive than ever,. May all the wonderful people who are fully in love with him be thanked! if you allow me one final metaphor, my friends, let's say that you are the living book where your Prince truly exists. Thank you all so much!

[Abe]

I really need to get into the Defenders. I will do it in 2016. And Roy Thomas... This guy is starting to fascinate me a lot... Happily I haven't read yet the story of Dorma's death... I know already that it's gonna be a truly tragic reading... I hope I will be able to forgive him...

[Custodes]

Let's just say that I'm really happy to have bought the Complete SVTU TPB last week : I just took a few glimpses into the book, but noticed something - heartbeat increasing!.. Is Tamara the beautiful Red One I saw in one issue capturing Doom - if I understood correctly the story? Lucky Doom... I think I knew her only by one Subby cover and one hilarious panel in the 365 Days Thread... Oh! I haven't seen your postscript Custodes. Maybe there are more than one Red One? Intriguing... Of course the death of Betty Dean will be a very bad moment in the reading - much worst than the "Droit du seigneur" storyline with Doom (this one makes laugh a lot... don't repeat it to Iron Maiden...)...

(Of course Doom is not a villain by the way. He's acting to save the Multiverse since his first appearance in FF5 : his time machine is so crucial for the fate of everything, and the longest story - mostly unknown - of Marvel Universe is his secret SVTU with Owen, as we all know. Sorry ! A bit of Latverian humour is always welcome. That's one of the teaching of the Master. I will reuse it in a few moments : I want to listen to my Blue Oyster Cult's albums. My English is better than ever () ! I hope I will be able to enjoy the lyrics now!)



Custodes. All your childhood memories are such a precious reading. Priceless. From "The Grotto of The Ancient" to the SVTU Graffiti. "The Trident and Lightening Bolt superimposed over each other, in a circular field with outside embellishment." Just amazing...

I really love the way Namor's fans deal with these memories. I'm talking about all of you who fell in love with the character reading his full runs while very young- and your age doesn't matter : the youngest ones among this elite fandom share this experience. It's not my case, I must confess it. I don't remember reading such stories in the other fandoms' posts - except something by Iron Maiden, exceptional as usual. And that particularity matches so perfectly the Namor theme of lost memories that it shows clearly all the symbolic powers of that absolutely brilliant creation.



I recently read something on the net about the childhood of Mignola. I can't find it for the moment. It was about his group of friends - a bunch of kids who named themselves I don't remember exactly how but the word "The Fly" is involved. And it's a still mysterious part of the prophecy that the whole Mignolaverse is supposed to tell... The guy is sourcing his works in his childhood memories... I just found this nice interview : https://thedissolve.com/features/int...lms-that-most/ about the movies that influenced his creation (he made designs for Coppola's Dracula btw, kinda related to the point I'm trying to make). I wanted to wrote a few words about the character of Abe Sapien, how it must be related to Namor - which Mignola drew in his early days - because of the lost memories and of Atlantis. Then celebrate the influence of Bill Everett on a creator mostly associated to his friend Jack Kirby. But reading that Moby Dick was one of the movies which inspired him, I do wonder if the name "Ahab" had also an influence of the name "Abe"...

Moby Dick story as a metaphor about the memory? Why not, of course? And that's what Namor is all about : dealing with all the dangers hidden deep in the ocean of our psychic life... A true magical power. Not forgotten. Never Lost. I know that he doesn't need a book to stay more alive than ever,. May all the wonderful people who are fully in love with him be thanked! if you allow me one final metaphor, my friends, let's say that you the living book where your Prince truly exists. Thank you all so much!

You just bought the complete SVTU. I'm jealous. My books are long gone. Are they in one volume? I am encouraged, by you Abe and Rev, to reread these. My memories are really vague now. I need a refresh. I will search for those.

Yes, Tamara is the Red One.

Her world is an undersea kingdom in another dimension though. Orca (I think) and She-Beast (was that the name?) came from there too. You see dimensional gateways open up on Earth in Marvel? Well, this gateway opened from Namor's underwater position to another underwater world.

I had not considered Dr Doom to practice the droit du siegneur or had forgotten. "It's good to be the king."

So, I understand Doom went back in time to fix all this Hickman stuff. I read that but, can not remember how far back? As you understand it....when did his plan with Molecule Man to start the incursions and save the planet start Marvel Time-wise?

All the way back to the beginning Silver Age? Do you know or remember when it was exactly? Do we know? I want to know how long Doom was doing this and think about all his battles from that point of view.

I bookmarked that Mignola article for later. I skimmed it though. Fascinating. All good films and some have a special meaning for me too. The only movie on the list I didn't love as a kid ( but did later) was Moby Dick. However, I loved the Novel. Some say it is the greatest NOVEL ever written (Shakespeare wrote plays remember English fans.) Melville went to my High School one year. Long before my time of course. He had to leave because, his parents couldn't afford it....too bad. The Albany Academy For Boys. It used to be a military school. Melville's family home was outside Pittsfield, Mass at the time. In the records it says he was punished for staying up after lights out quite often. He would read, under the covers with the light of one candle. A bit dangerous and thought to be very bad for the eyes back then. We had a big reunion a few years back based on him and his works with a Moby Dick book reading front to back non-stop in the Chapel. I forget how many hours it took into the wee hours. Each reader got one hour to read out loud. The invitations and posters were of a famous Melville picture with sunglasses(Shades really, to be cool) put on him.

Anyway...Mignolas list, and the article, looks great. I'll read it today. Bride of Frankenstein. Beneath The Planet of The Apes. Interesting choices. Used to have an old cover Mike did. Early one...a Giant-Sized X-Factor issue. Before his style was finalized (if such a thing is ever done evolving.)

You are more up on SVTU than all of us now. Hope my recollection of the Pact and their symbol was correct. Symbols used to mean so much to me. I remember drawing a few other Marvel designs as well (on the desks....never cared much for study hall.) I would never let anyone else in on what they meant when asked. Only Ty and maybe one or two others read the good stuff. Better to be mysterious. Comics were not cool then. I did quote Mantis all the time though. I practiced the Martial Arts which was a bit unusual for then compared to now with everyone's love of MMA. So she came in handy.

What is your first language Abe? I didn't realize you were multilingual.

[Custodes]

I really need to get into the Defenders. I will do it in 2016. And Roy Thomas... This guy is starting to fascinate me a lot... Happily I haven't read yet the story of Dorma's death... I know already that it's gonna be a truly tragic reading... I hope I will be able to forgive him...

Roy was a huge Golden Age fan as a kid. He loved the JSA and Namor and Cap and Torch. I remember him saying once, that in the 1960s, if you didn't own a complete JSA collection you weren't anybody in the comic book collecting world. As a kid that impressed me. At a 1970 convention you could buy Avengers number 1 for $5.00. No matter what the condition. People dealing had a couple hand fulls of them each.Take your pick.

Roy interned at DC in the 60s. Then moved to Marvel to be Stan's assistant. Some of the DC folks, unhappy with the move, called him Houseboy Roy....unkindly. We Marvel Fans remember him as the "Rascally" one. DC did not allow their employees to work anywhere else in the comic world then. Which is why he had to choose and why many artists had pen names at Marvel. Like George Roussos was George Bell at Marvel. And Gene Colon was Adam Austin. So the DC editors never knew. But, we all knew. We all knew Gene's style. How could you not?

When Stan left as editor-in-chief as they used to call it Roy took his turn. He was very experimental and tried many new things. He was instrumental is bringing monster comics back(with others.) The comic code not allowing them still. The Monster of Frankenstein. Tomb of Dracula all became big. He brought Conan to Marvel as a huge Robert E Howard fan and wrote the book for many years and even parts of the Conan movie. He experimented on Martial Arts books. Bruce Lee was huge. That is how Shang- Chi and Iron Fist came about. It was almost all super hero then. Romance had just died. Cowboys were out of fashion. He poached Gil Kane (Eli Katz) from DC to Marvel and they collaborated on a few first issues. Gil became one of Marvels best cover artists in the 70's along with Jazzy Johnny Romita.

I heard a story once that when he was at DC two younger interns started there. They brashly talked their way in the door. It was Marv Wolfman and Len Wein. One of their early mindless jobs was to destroy DC Golden Age art. You see there was too much and no room to store it at the offices anymore. Sounds very philistine-like to us today. They were tasked with ripping it up and throwing it in a designated trashcan. They were appalled. So they took scissors and cut the twice-up G.A. art pages between the panels so as not to ruin the work. Then dumped it in the trashcans. On break and after work they took it home (not theft....it was garbage at DC) AND TAPED IT BACK TOGETHER!

Years later, I was to buy a lot of Golden Age art. Two such pages...an Irwin Hassan GL page and another GL page (wracking my brain but can not remember the other artist at this time) were cut in three pieces, straight between panels and taped back together, the art not being touched. I can never be sure but, I believe these are two of the pages that Marv and Len saved. Marv went on to Tomb of Dracula and Teen Titans fame. Len co-created Wolverine and The All New X-men in Giant Sized X-Men #1 and on. Len was later editor at Marvel, briefly, as well. Thanks guys.

Roy put the Defenders together. Marvel's Non-Team. As we used to call them, I think. Long forgotten phrase. In Dr. Strange #183 and The Incredible Hulk #126 and Prince Namor, The Savage Sub-Mariner #22 he started the team ups. Along with Silver Surfer. Barbara Norris can later (the original Valkyrie) in Subby #34 and #35. In Marvel Feature #1 he first put The Defenders on the title. And they shortly after got their own book.

Who can forget the infamous Avengers/Defenders Clash? Not I. Marvel's second biggest story and crossover after The Kree Skrull War in the Bronze Age. Good times.

Roy went on back to DC in the eighties and wrote a lot of JLA and All Star Comics with their next generation of children. These books helped build a lot of DC mythology over the years and still are. Example...Atom Smasher on the Flash a few weeks ago.

I don't know if Roy was ever a great writer. Probably not except on a few books. His Avengers run with John Buscema drawing and George Roussos and later George Klein (of Curt Swan Superman inking fame) inking. Great super hero work. From the issues Avengers #70s to when Steve Englehart took over (another great Bronze Age writer.) Roy brought us Vision and Ultron and Yellowjacket among others. Brought back The Black Knight. The Lady Liberators. The annual Rutland Vermont Comic Book Parades issues ( with Bernie Wrightson at DC and Gary Friedrich at Marvel and others) And his Conan work. In the color book and Savage Sword and Savage Tales. I think he has a great deal to do with Robert E Howard's current fame. If not always a great writer... did he have great ideas?!!!

As an editor...a short run...he was superb.

[Abe]

You just bought the complete SVTU. I'm jealous. My books are long gone. Are they in one volume? I am encouraged, by you Abe and Rev, to reread these. My memories are really vague now. I need a refresh. I will search for those.

I had not considered Dr Doom to practice the droit du siegneur or had forgotten. "It's good to be the king."

So, I understand Doom went back in time to fix all this Hickman stuff. I read that but, can not remember how far back? As you understand it....when did his plan with Molecule Man to start the incursions and save the planet start Marvel Time-wise?

All the way back to the beginning Silver Age? Do you know or remember when it was exactly? Do we know? I want to know how long Doom was doing this and think about all his battles from that point of view.

I quote only these parts of this passionating post, to help me to focus on the subject of the thread...

Before that, and very quickly, I'm a French guy! And, long before my time, this very interesting man used to teach a few years in my high-school... A few words he sent us 50 years later were the little push that led me to my profession...

Now, Namor and Doom and what led to Secret Wars...

The Molecule Man reappears in the November 2014 issue of New Avengers :#24 - 'The Cabal'. It's important because Namor visits Victor - and Victor wouldn't be alive at that very moment if Namor didn't did what it did. Namor allowed Victor to save everyone... And many forget that part, making of him the perfect scapegoat.

In the very same issue Victor is about to start a quite long journey through time and universes. It really starts in an other issue and is told is the crucial final issue of June 2015 : New Avengers (2013) #33 - 'In Latveria, the Flowers Die in Summer'

Victor and Owen assist in a different Universe to... the origin of the Molecule Man! Why is it important, what is their plan, what did Victor have to do to save something of the Multiverse... I let you discover it. But the important thing, is that Victor Von Doom is playing a crucial game across all the Marvel Multiverse since the events which were told first in this story of November 1963 : Fantastic Four #20 - 'The Mysterious Molecule Man!'.

Big scale story, indeed !

And, recommended by the Latverian and Atlantean appreciation thread a long time before I appear on the boards, this book : http://www.forbiddenplanet.co.uk/sup...illain-team-up

Of course I put the book on a little altar I made myself, in order to praise and celebrate everyday the All-Mighty SVTU Lords - they saved us all - and their terrestrial intercessors - I mean Iron Maiden and Reviresco.

(PS : while I was writing this another amazing post appeared... I will have to deal with it later! I hear real life calling!)

EDIT : Too late! I read it... Incredible post... Thanks so much to share! What comment can be added, Custodes?...

Perhaps this, to keep the thread on tracks : such examples of respect of the history of comics are needed more than ever. Let's hope that Chief Jon is right to be confident in the work of the SS writer - known as a GA fan - and that the editorial staff still care a little... That's all we can hope and say today...

[Custodes]

I quote only these parts of this passionating post, to help me to focus on the subject of the thread...

Before that, and very quickly, I'm a French guy! And, long before my time, this very interesting man used to teach a few years in my high-school... A few words he sent us 50 years later were the little push that led me to my profession...

Now, Namor and Doom and what led to Secret Wars...

The Molecule Man reappears in the November 2014 issue of New Avengers :#24 - 'The Cabal'. It's important because Namor visits Victor - and Victor wouldn't be alive at that very moment if Namor didn't did what it did. Namor allowed Victor to save everyone... And many forget that part, making of him the perfect scapegoat.

In the very same issue Victor is about to start a quite long journey through time and universes. It really starts in an other issue and is told is the crucial final issue of June 2015 : New Avengers (2013) #33 - 'In Latveria, the Flowers Die in Summer'

Victor and Owen assist in a different Universe to... the origin of the Molecule Man! Why is it important, what is their plan, what did Victor have to do to save something of the Multiverse... I let you discover it. But the important thing, is that Victor Von Doom is playing a crucial game across all the Marvel Multiverse since the events which were told first in this story of November 1963 : Fantastic Four #20 - 'The Mysterious Molecule Man!'.

Big scale story, indeed !

And, recommended by the Latverian and Atlantean appreciation thread a long time before I appear on the boards, this book : http://www.forbiddenplanet.co.uk/sup...illain-team-up

Of course I put the book on a little altar I made myself, in order to praise and celebrate everyday the All-Mighty SVTU Lords - they saved us all - and their terrestrial intercessors - I mean Iron Maiden and Reviresco.

(PS : while I was writing this another amazing post appeared... I will have to deal with it later! I hear real life calling!)

EDIT : Too late! I read it... Incredible post... Thanks so much to share! What comment can be added, Custodes?...

Perhaps this, to keep the thread on tracks : such examples of respect of the history of comics are needed more than ever. Let's hope that Chief Jon is right to be confident in the work of SS writer - known as a GA fan - and that the editorial staff still care a little... That's all we can hope and say today...

Cool....FF # 20...that was what I was looking for. Thanks. I missed that or forgot it from 2014 reading. Alas, I hear the real world calling too. Food shopping. Boring but, it must be done. BTW... I just started reading your posts in a French accent.;-) Caught myself.

Thanks for the links.

[Reviresco]

Rev: I really liked Tamara. I thought she would be, finally, Namor's permanent mate. Dorma was dead then remember. Tamara is drawn quite well here. Didn't Steve Gerber write the book then? People were very unhappy when Bill left. And then he died.

I think alot of that is due to Jim Mooney. He did the inks, and some of the pencils. Sam Kweskin gets credited for the other half of the pencils. This was credited to Everett and Gerber, so it was probably Bill's plot and Gerber's script.

There was definitely some possibilities for their relationship, but it just got dropped in the intervening decades between books. Byrne didn't use her at all. Harras did bring her back, but in a relationship with Tiger Shark!

I always wondered, did Subby do better sales under Everett, or not? Because as a kid, I was stupid, and didn't appreciate his art, say in comparison to Big John Buscema. Plus, there the delays and the reprints.

Tamara was from "Zephyrland" (sp?) or something like that. An inter-dimensional underwater realm. Named after the God of Gentle breezes or West Winds. Not that it was explained thusly. No one asked, the first few issues, why an underwater realm would have a gentle breeze or be named after one. :-) Finally a writer in the letters column got it. Looked it up in the dictionary.

She was very warlike. Maybe stronger than Namor himself (originally.) Seemed a good fit. Of course, like all of Namor's mates, she betrayed him. Though several years and writers later. She was Namor's "girl" when that series ended.

No, that was Virago / She-Devil. Tamara was a stowaway the ship of male red aliens (the Brotherhood) that were in Subby #56. Being female, she was of the Sisterhood. I don't think they actually named their planet, did they?

I could be mistaken, but I didn't remember her being that strong -- probably Atlantean level strong She was angry and aggressive, in the beginning, and didn't like the Atlanteans or much of anyone, understandably. She was interesting, because like Namor she wasn outsider, even moreso, being the last of her kind.

When did she betray him? When she appeared in the Thunderbolts, IIRC, she was sort of working for him, infiltrating that Atlantean fundamentalist group. I think that was the last time I remember seeing her.

[Custodes]

I think alot of that is due to Jim Mooney. He did the inks, and some of the pencils. Sam Kweskin gets credited for the other half of the pencils. This was credited to Everett and Gerber, so it was probably Bill's plot and Gerber's script.

There was definitely some possibilities for their relationship, but it just got dropped in the intervening decades between books. Byrne didn't use her at all. Harras did bring her back, but in a relationship with Tiger Shark!

I always wondered, did Subby do better sales under Everett, or not? Because as a kid, I was stupid, and didn't appreciate his art, say in comparison to Big John Buscema. Plus, there the delays and the reprints.

I always loved Jim Mooney. Yes...the "eyes" have it, as they say. He is one of the reasons I loved Silver Age Supergirl so much. He was awesome, on Man-Thing too in the Bronze Age. I loved his pencils and his inking. I was a big Bob Brown fan too from The Avengers and Superboy and DD. They both worked at DC and Marvel and are semi-forgotten. Both the Buscemas were very popular in the 60s & 70s. John was usually likeD a bit more by fans. Sal was a workhouse. Used almost too much. He was fast and got the job done on time....usually. He got watered down a bit though. With light pencils/layouts and heavy inking/embellishment.

I remember the Sam Kweskin thing. As for the Bill vs John controversy...they were both great. John had a look that was easy for young, beginners to like. Realistic. Pretty. Bill was a little more expressionistic. His world was created by him (more like Kirby and Ditko) not as much by nature (although he did darn nice seals.) Bill is an acquired taste but, I acquired it a lot easier than others. As a kid I thought Bill was the best. He was my favorite. I never said no to John Buscema though. Especially on Thor or the Avengers (Klein ink were my favorite.)

I think Bill/Steve on the plotting/scripts sounds about right.

No, that was Virago / She-Devil. Tamara was a stowaway the ship of male red aliens (the Brotherhood) that were in Subby #56. Being female, she was of the Sisterhood. I don't think they actually named their planet, did they?

I could be mistaken, but I didn't remember her being that strong -- probably Atlantean level strong She was angry and aggressive, in the beginning, and didn't like the Atlanteans or much of anyone, understandably. She was interesting, because like Namor she wasn outsider, even moreso, being the last of her kind.

When did she betray him? When she appeared in the Thunderbolts, IIRC, she was sort of working for him, infiltrating that Atlantean fundamentalist group. I think that was the last time I remember seeing her.

Oh yes. I remember that Slave-type boat now. Sorry I was mistaken. It was around the same time and is all bunched together in my head.

As for betraying Namor...I'm sorry I can not remember when it happened exactly but it was years later. I did not read it as a new book. It was in a pile of "older" comics I picked up by an incomplete bunch. They were on opposite sides and she fought against him. I think she lead him into a trap first pretending they were together. This is 90s or 2000s. Long after she was forgotten. I was happy to see her return then horrified of her betrayal. Can't even remember the comic or creative team. Maybe FF? I don't retain that stuff anymore since the 80s. Just Tamara and Namor stuck in my head.

Long after that Yellow woman from Alpha Flight turned mad monster and tried to eat him several times. The one he married. Another of his "this is it forever mates." She was a powerful friend for a time. I knew White Queen wouldn't last but, she was a good, powerful ally and teammate.

Anyway, I read the story with annoyance.

Your Namor knowledge is always being updated Rev. Mine alas is failing. I defer to you. I always considered you the Ruler of Comicbookresources Namor Threads. Many years back even.

[Reviresco]

I always loved Jim Mooney. Yes...the "eyes" have it, as they say. He is one of the reasons I loved Silver Age Supergirl so much. He was awesome, on Man-Thing too in the Bronze Age. I loved his pencils and his inking. I was a big Bob Brown fan too from The Avengers and Superboy and DD. They both worked at DC and Marvel and are semi-forgotten. Both the Buscemas were very popular in the 60s & 70s. John was usually likeD a bit more by fans. Sal was a workhouse. Used almost too much. He was fast and got the job done on time....usually. He got watered down a bit though. With light pencils/layouts and heavy inking/embellishment.

I remember the Sam Kweskin thing. As for the Bill vs John controversy...they were both great. John had a look that was easy for young, beginners to like. Realistic. Pretty. Bill was a little more expressionistic. His world was created by him (more like Kirby and Ditko) not as much by nature (although he did darn nice seals.) Bill is an acquired taste but, I acquired it a lot easier than others. As a kid I thought Bill was the best. He was my favorite. I never said no to John Buscema though. Especially on Thor or the Avengers (Klein ink were my favorite.)

I think Bill/Steve on the plotting/scripts sounds about right.

Yeah, I don't think Jim Mooney gets enough credit either. Inkers back then could definitely make or break or book, and Mooney always made things much better, IMO.

I'm not sure why I didn't care for Everett so much when I was a kid. I'll have to think on that. It could also be that his stories weren't so angsty, like Conway, who he followed.

Oh yes. I remember that Slave-type boat now. Sorry I was mistaken. It was around the same time and is all bunched together in my head.

As for betraying Namor...I'm sorry I can not remember when it happened exactly but it was years later. I did not read it as a new book. It was in a pile of "older" comics I picked up by an incomplete bunch. They were on opposite sides and she fought against him. I think she lead him into a trap first pretending they were together. This is 90s or 2000s. Long after she was forgotten. I was happy to see her return then horrified of her betrayal. Can't even remember the comic or creative team. Maybe FF? I don't retain that stuff anymore since the 80s. Just Tamara and Namor stuck in my head.

Long after that Yellow woman from Alpha Flight turned mad monster and tried to eat him several times. The one he married. Another of his "this is it forever mates." She was a powerful friend for a time. I knew White Queen wouldn't last but, she was a good, powerful ally and teammate.

Anyway, I read the story with annoyance.

Your Namor knowledge is always being updated Rev. Mine alas is failing. I defer to you. I always considered you the Ruler of Comicbookresources Namor Threads. Many years back even.

And here I thought I was just the most ... talkative (I'm sure there are other words for it), of the Namor fans here. ;p

Sadly, my memory fails me regularly, but I have resources that others have gathered before me. And a good portion of the comics, which I have to regularly consult.

And yes, the Tamara and Virago stories were at the same time, following each other directly, IIRC.

I'm intrigued now, and will have to go digging for more on Tamara. There was the great cover by Gil Kane and Everett, but I think it was in her origin / first apperance.





But you are correct, in that Namor gets betrayed / has tragic romances often -- but he keeps on trying! It would nice to be see him happy for a decade or so. Of course, many fans might not recognize him then. LOL!

[Mr MajestiK]

From Defenders 14, where SS Nighthawk joined the Defenders in their fight against his former team mates, the SS, and is fatally injured in the fight.



Namor giving up some of his own lifeforce to save Nighthawk.

I really miss stories like this.