2nd Annual Namor the Sub-Mariner Advent Calendar

[Reviresco]

^Great cover Abe. I was a big Byrne fan then. I love Charlton too.

Also, similar to the cover of Kamandi #1 by Kirby.



PS: Only five days 'til Christmas....December 22nd. The days are getting longer finally.

I'm behind, of course. Got distracted by another thread last night. Will try to catch up tonite after errands. Tis the season!

[Thor-El]

5 Days to Christmas

Namor goes to the Avengers ...

Thor again sees the true mettle of the Sub-Mariner -- which we don't see nowadays, since he's bromancing with Hyperion. The cure they got from Hank Pym is temporary and Marrina quickly turns into Leviathan again. The Black Knight decides the only solution is to kill Leviathan Marrina with his Ebony Blade, even though it will mean he invokes its curse. Namor, however, has made promises ...


"Though I am no longer a monarch, am I not a guardian of Earth and its mortal inhabitants?"

Such a tragic story. I got to read this one as it came out. Then years later came out the Norman Osborn story by Alan Davis, like pouring salt all over Namor's wound.

[Iron Maiden]

Such a tragic story. I got to read this one as it came out. Then years later came out the Norman Osborn story by Alan Davis, like pouring salt all over Namor's wound.

Oh, now that I know what happened to Marrina, how was she used in the Alan Davis story? and spoiler tag if you must. I think I read that but I might be getting it mixed up with something else.

I really wish that things hadn't ended up like that.

[Thor-El]

Oh, now that I know what happened to Marrina, how was she used in the Alan Davis story? and spoiler tag if you must. I think I read that but I might be getting it mixed up with something else.


I really wish that things hadn't ended up like that.

SPOILERS FOLLOW for Dark Reign: The List X-Men:

I remember they teased her return in Avengers during Kurt Busiek tenure as writer, I think the Master of the world had her on what seemed like suspended animation in a cristal tube in human form. I think after Busiek left the book that thread was picked up by Matt Fraction in this story. In this story they just showed her as monster, Osborne might have turned her back into monster but shark size when the story starts. Basically it wasn't Marrina anymore, some psychic mutants reached her mind and could only find hunger, rage and hate on her mind so at that stage it was pure monster. Norman Osborn manipulated her genetically so she would have an insatiable hunger and could only satiate it with atlantean blood, he set her out in the ocean so she would annihilate as many atlanteans to get back at Namor for double crossing him, the more she ate, the more she grew, the more the hunger. Needless to say Namor had to kill her again.

[Iron Maiden]

SPOILERS FOLLOW for Dark Reign: The List X-Men:

Basically it wasn't Marrina anymore, some psychic mutants reached her mind and could only find hunger, rage and hate on her mind so at that stage it was pure monster. Norman Osborn manipulated her genetically so she would have an insatiable hunger and could only satiate it with atlantean blood, he set her out in the ocean so she would annihilate as many atlanteans to get back at Namor for double crossing him, the more she ate, the more she grew, the more the hunger. Needless to say Namor had to kill her again.

Oh, I think I did read that and I believe Namor tossed his "weapon" back at him. Sad ending to a cool character. Stuff like that is why the term fridged gets tossed around about female characters. At least it wasn't as bad as what happened to Valeria in Unthinkable.

[Thor-El]

Oh, I think I did read that and I believe Namor tossed his "weapon" back at him. Sad ending to a cool character. Stuff like that is why the term fridged gets tossed around about female characters. At least it wasn't as bad as what happened to Valeria in Unthinkable.

Yes, that seemed rather cold from Namor but I think he was so enraged at Osborn and knowing the Sentry could probably finish him that he was going for shock in that attack to Osborn. And he is successful, Osborn stops the Sentry from jumping into battle against him. Osborn was probably satisfied with the damage he had already done to Namor and his people.

There is a marked difference in Namor's attitude in front of Osborn versus the tenderness he speaks to the monster when he is driving it to its destruction. Plus that image in the middle of memories of better times just breaks my heart.



Valeria's and Dorma's death stories I haven't read yet. I'm not going to ask you to spoil them but for Valeria I'm not even sure I know the character, during what period was she the romantic interest?

[Iron Maiden]

Yes, that seemed rather cold from Namor but I think he was so enraged at Osborn and knowing the Sentry could probably finish him that he was going for shock in that attack to Osborn. And he is successful, Osborn stops the Sentry from jumping into battle against him. Osborn was probably satisfied with the damage he had already done to Namor and his people.

There is a marked difference in Namor's attitude in front of Osborn versus the tenderness he speaks to the monster when he is driving it to its destruction. Plus that image in the middle of memories of better times just breaks my heart.


Valeria's and Dorma's death stories I haven't read yet. I'm not going to ask you to spoil them but for Valeria I'm not even sure I know the character, during what period was she the romantic interest?

I don't think I have the issue that shows Dorma's death. As for Valeria, she was a gypsy child that grew up with Victor and they were childhood sweethearts. They became estranged from each other for a while after his father's death but they got back together after his accident. But Mark Waid took care of that in Unthinkable

[Abe]

Yes, that seemed rather cold from Namor but I think he was so enraged at Osborn and knowing the Sentry could probably finish him that he was going for shock in that attack to Osborn. And he is successful, Osborn stops the Sentry from jumping into battle against him. Osborn was probably satisfied with the damage he had already done to Namor and his people.

There is a marked difference in Namor's attitude in front of Osborn versus the tenderness he speaks to the monster when he is driving it to its destruction. Plus that image in the middle of memories of better times just breaks my heart.



Valeria's and Dorma's death stories I haven't read yet. I'm not going to ask you to spoil them but for Valeria I'm not even sure I know the character, during what period was she the romantic interest?

Thanks for the spoiler warning in the first post,Thor-El

!But in fact I'm glad tthat I have read all your posts, and learned more about that second death of Marrina. (It hasn't the same weight as the death of Dorma I think, so spoilers are not a problem - Lady Dorma is an exception because I still have so much to read and learn about this ultra-mythological character...)

About Marrina, I'm not sure at all that it was necessary to bring back the character for such a story. Even if I truly really appreciated the pages you posted!... So emotional indeed.

As far as I know what was done with (to) Valeria is not better. And damaged really the character of Victor. I only read one issue of the story and the characterization wasn't respectful of what was build by Stan Lee, Jack Kirby and John Byrne. I appreciate still but a bit less the period between those runs - even if I had very good childhood memories of Doom written by Mark Wolman : completely crazy avenging Doom. Badass Doom! Byrne is closer to the original complexity of the character. Hickman in a way use a device to bring back the character at the state he was in the middle of Byrne's run which is great. All that just to say that I do everything in order to keep Unthinkable unread and in fact literally unthinkable regarding the really interesting version of the charactr - and also to protect the wonderful relation between Victor and his goddaughter Valeria - he chose her name..

Bur every era can see the appearance of a masterpiece! You'll find in Brubaker's Books of Doom a comics of the highest quality. It really impressed me and is one of the rare comics which remind me a good novel or even a good movie-like TV-Show... The story written by Waid about Valeria damaged this wonderful book irremediably too IMHO. No need to say that the book is rooted in the finest Kirby and Lee Doom's stories. Just Perfect!

For the original issues about Valeria I will probably read them during these holidays. But from the panels I've seen I can tell you that her beauty reminds me Lady Dorma - when I write such line I keep in mind that beauty isn't only about plastic, but requires an attitude thus my impressions linking the character to Dorma. I let Iron Maiden tell you everything about the original stories with Valeria - if she haven't done it yet while I am writing this probably already too long post...

(EDIT : Yes she did!)

It's obvious that there's not many Namor in it indeed... I need to make an effort before concluding... So let's say that I don't remember much of him during Byrne's FF - but I like many things in the few issues I've read of his Namor series. His Giganto is wonderful - and even if I'm not a fan of trial stories, the ones Byrne wrote are always interesting. I think that his run is not among the ones Rev prefers... but it's good to see that he made some points about the history of the character that should be still considered as valid nowadays. Byrne's perspective on continuity - in fact his taste for the rewriting and even the redrawing of the fundamental stories - is something I really appreciate. His trial of Reed Richards is also something I should reread seriously - after having finally read the original version of the ending of the Dark Phoenix Saga of course, and in order to think a bit more about the current sad events with our Sub-Mariner...

(It reminds me that I promised more scans from Doomsday+1 for the Doom Appreciation thread and to link it to another great Doom / FF story : "Terror in a Tiny Town" - FF#236... Holidays will be useful!... At least I hope! As there's also an Atlantis-like sub-plot in this early Byrne series, I will try to do something also for the Namor Appreciation thread...And Byrne's Giganto will of course be an highlight of the forthcoming Marvelous Monsters thread... )

[Mantis Girl 94]

I hate Norman after seeing that! I never read it (and now I won't).

Cannot wait for your Marv. Monsters Thread Abe!!!!

[Reviresco]

Such a tragic story. I got to read this one as it came out. Then years later came out the Norman Osborn story by Alan Davis, like pouring salt all over Namor's wound.

I did have some things I didn't like about that story, but that page was not one of them. It was one of the best things Fraction wrote with Namor.

SPOILERS FOLLOW for Dark Reign: The List X-Men:

I remember they teased her return in Avengers during Kurt Busiek tenure as writer, I think the Master of the world had her on what seemed like suspended animation in a cristal tube in human form. I think after Busiek left the book that thread was picked up by Matt Fraction in this story. In this story they just showed her as monster, Osborne might have turned her back into monster but shark size when the story starts. Basically it wasn't Marrina anymore, some psychic mutants reached her mind and could only find hunger, rage and hate on her mind so at that stage it was pure monster. Norman Osborn manipulated her genetically so she would have an insatiable hunger and could only satiate it with atlantean blood, he set her out in the ocean so she would annihilate as many atlanteans to get back at Namor for double crossing him, the more she ate, the more she grew, the more the hunger. Needless to say Namor had to kill her again.

Yes, they never explained anything about Marrina's resurrection, much less how Osborn got his hands on her, did they?

When Marrina transformed into the Monster Plodex, I don't think there was much if anything left of her, in the Simonson story either.

The most recent resurrected Marrina, however, came out of Chaos War.

Oh, I think I did read that and I believe Namor tossed his "weapon" back at him. Sad ending to a cool character. Stuff like that is why the term fridged gets tossed around about female characters. At least it wasn't as bad as what happened to Valeria in Unthinkable.

Yes, that seemed rather cold from Namor but I think he was so enraged at Osborn and knowing the Sentry could probably finish him that he was going for shock in that attack to Osborn. And he is successful, Osborn stops the Sentry from jumping into battle against him. Osborn was probably satisfied with the damage he had already done to Namor and his people.

There is a marked difference in Namor's attitude in front of Osborn versus the tenderness he speaks to the monster when he is driving it to its destruction. Plus that image in the middle of memories of better times just breaks my heart.


This! That's exactly how I felt about that page. It was heartbreaking, yet perfect.

The business about Namor throwing Leviathan Marrina's head into Osborn's office was one of the things I didn't like about The List. It was, as you said, cold, especially in light of the other page. That said, your point about Namor putting on a different face with Osborn, lines up with Fraction's quirk of making Namor just outright lie. Often, for seemingly no reason, but here, it could fit the situation of intimidating Osborn.

I hate Norman after seeing that! I never read it (and now I won't).

Cannot wait for your Marv. Monsters Thread Abe!!!!

Ditto!

I don't think even Alonso would try to sell Osborn as anything but a villain, that we are supposed to hate.

[Reviresco]

Because we still have people saying Namor was never remorseful for his actions in Hickman's run, a scene from Avengers World 20, where Namor dreams...








Clearly, Namor is a man plagued by his conscience and tormentingly aware of what he has done and why, and of those he can't save.

[Reviresco]

4 Days to Christmas

And it's clear to Black Swan.




And she warns him again.




"Signs of weakness. Regret. You aren't cut out for the culling of worlds, HERO."

[Custodes]

I hate Norman after seeing that! I never read it (and now I won't).

Cannot wait for your Marv. Monsters Thread Abe!!!!

I always hated him but, this did piss me off too.

Rev: I had forgotten about the Chaos War, a huge story-arc, inside a gigantic bigger one. Being Dark Reign. It was nice seeing Vision and Captain Marvel and others again.

And yes...your efforts to show Namor as a sympathetic fellow are going over the heads of some. But, not here. You have posted several I have forgotten. Even though I read the entire Avengers run (in every Avengers book.) Good work, Namorite.

[Of Atlantis]

It's a shame that those who indiscriminately post how Namor lacks the regret in what he's done refuse to acknowledge his development in Avengers World. I felt that went strides in repairing the damage to Namor's reputation. Only wish more could've been exposed to it. Some great moments in that arc.

[Reviresco]

I always hated him but, this did piss me off too.

Rev: I had forgotten about the Chaos War, a huge story-arc, inside a gigantic bigger one. Being Dark Reign. It was nice seeing Vision and Captain Marvel and others again.

Yes, Dark Reign certainly reinforced what Norman Osborn was. It's yet another reason why I'm worried about Bendis and Doom. Ellis did great things with Osborn, just as Hickman as done great things with Doom. In both cases, Bendis is attempting to spin off what they did.

Yes, Chaos War is mostly forgotten. To be honest, I felt it was a bit ... anti-climatic to Pak and VanLente's wonderful stories, which is weird to say, since it did involve the end of everything.

And yes...your efforts to show Namor as a sympathetic fellow are going over the heads of some. But, not here. You have posted several I have forgotten. Even though I read the entire Avengers run (in every Avengers book.) Good work, Namorite.

Thanks, Custodes! I think if someone actually wants to read the truth, instead of parroting, at best, a mis-informed narrative, and at worst, character assassination, they will have it here. For those that don't, well, haters gonna hate. ;p

And for fans, besides having the info here, we have the great pleasure or rediscovering some wonderful moments in Namor's history. I know there's plenty I've forgotten too, as I didn't really get to peruse the Defenders or Invaders stuff.

It's a shame that those who indiscriminately post how Namor lacks the regret in what he's done refuse to acknowledge his development in Avengers World. I felt that went strides in repairing the damage to Namor's reputation. Only wish more could've been exposed to it. Some great moments in that arc.

I agree. And there was so much more Barbarie could have done. Yes, I'm biased, but I was far more interested in learning about Namor and Black Swan's relationship than I was reading about Sunspot and Hyperion.