Thread Drift: Mary Jane's Appearance in Invincible Iron Man

[Confuzzled]

(Hmm.. now I'm wonder if comic analysis ninja skills are worth a discount on a cup coffee somewhere. It has to pay off somewhere, it just has to!)

Only if it provides an opportunity to tell the other customers to unclench after "bowing out of the cafe".

[Spidercide]

The difference between a hypothetical on-the-shelf MJ and one in an ongoing superhero book is that on-the-shelf MJ would be her own protagonist. All her development would stem from her own life and personal narrative. It also allows that development to be realistic and boring, since it doesn't have to be infused with structure or thematic elements. Luke's development between Empire and Jedi was probably him doing a lot of meditating and calisthenics in isolation somewhere. Not terribly interesting if it were actually shown. Which means to show it would be to have to craft something worth watching . . . which then may not have served Jedi as well.

Some MJ-centric B-plots could absolutely concentrate on MJ and her personal life away from Stark Industries, but only in a limited sense. Ultimately, if she is just puttering around in the book without any connection to Tony's story, her presence in the book isn't justified.

MJ being in Iron Man gives some opportunity for MJ to be developed independent of Peter and his story, but not wholly independently, as she is now instead tied to whatever is going on in the Iron Man books.

Well no. If your character is on the shelf then by definition hey are neither protagonist nor supporting character. They are in limbo.


I mean for all the years Kaine was absent from Spider-Man he wasn’t his own protagonist. He just didn’t exist.


Also I really don’t like this idea of codifying that it is bad for MJ’s development not ever stemming from herself. By this definition all supporting characters have this big bad problem, as do the villains. But MJ drove her own narrative at times within Spider-Man’s world. A world where she is at her best because that’s where all her history and personal relationships reside. Put aside her romance with Peter, MJ has a long friendship with Harry and Aunt May and Betty brant as well as tensions with Venom and Norman Osborn. The same way current Spider-Man is innately compromised by being out of NYC and away from his cast and regular villains, so to would MJ. This isn’t even getting into the fact that this is prioritizing MJ as a character over Peter himself when that not right since Peter is an older and more popular character as well as the centre of a whole franchise. For the record before anyone says anything my feelings like this would apply if we were trying to spin Joker and Alfred off into Green Lantern or if in Spider-Girl we removed Mayday’s parents and Normie Osborn from her narrative to spin them off or put them in other books. You could do it but it’d undermine Mayday, the characters they were created to hold up and who is I’m sorry, more important than them. You don’t undermine your parent book for the sake of spin-offs. Same way Norman’s turn as an Avengers villain and Flash being Venom is deductive to Peter’s story.


Like I said, it’s a massive cheat to take a character off panel and just bring them back as different, especially for major player like MJ.


Movies and serialized comics are not the same thing. Movies are shorter and quicker forms of storytelling. They require big jumps to make the story work but at the same time even then Luke in Jedi was a natural outgrowth from Empire and Empire gave enough indication that he could end up as someone like Jedi Luke.


Isn’t the entire point of ficton that the characters are doing something worth observing. If the aim of the game is character development then that shouldn’t happen off stage and SHOULD be worth watching.


The only times I think it’s ever acceptable is when it’s being done for a very minor character who’s been offstage for a long while and had little to them in the first place, or else the passage of time would require them to be different. E.g. teenage Liz Allan left Spider-Man in ASM #30 only to return years later. A teenager graduating high school cannot be unchanged by life after 3 years living and working in the real world and she wasn’t so important or good a character that the changes needed to be seen, although we were TOLD about them (plus what was okay for 1970s superhero comics which were much more compressed and didn’t have modern innovations like minis and one shots). Mary Jane is too big a character for important life events for her to happen off panel or for time to drastically change her like that.


You forget Mary Jane was within Spider-Man and GOT developed independent from Peter’s story. Her entire origin was related from her to Peter but it was her story. The stuff about Jonathan Caesar and her struggling to be taken seriously as an actress happened in Spider-Man but it was independnat from Peter. And sometimes it didn’t connect to Peter’s life which was fine. Other times it did, even if that was by virtue of her just being his wife thus their problems being shared.


But the point is moot because yeah she’d get developed independent from peter…but she’d not be independent from Tony. If we’re saying her being tied into Peter is bad then how is it better to tie her into another character? Surely by this logic anything short of a solo series starring MJ would be bad.

[Darkspellmaster]

Well no. If your character is on the shelf then by definition hey are neither protagonist nor supporting character. They are in limbo.


I mean for all the years Kaine was absent from Spider-Man he wasn’t his own protagonist. He just didn’t exist.


Also I really don’t like this idea of codifying that it is bad for MJ’s development not ever stemming from herself. By this definition all supporting characters have this big bad problem, as do the villains. But MJ drove her own narrative at times within Spider-Man’s world. A world where she is at her best because that’s where all her history and personal relationships reside. Put aside her romance with Peter, MJ has a long friendship with Harry and Aunt May and Betty brant as well as tensions with Venom and Norman Osborn. The same way current Spider-Man is innately compromised by being out of NYC and away from his cast and regular villains, so to would MJ. This isn’t even getting into the fact that this is prioritizing MJ as a character over Peter himself when that not right since Peter is an older and more popular character as well as the centre of a whole franchise. For the record before anyone says anything my feelings like this would apply if we were trying to spin Joker and Alfred off into Green Lantern or if in Spider-Girl we removed Mayday’s parents and Normie Osborn from her narrative to spin them off or put them in other books. You could do it but it’d undermine Mayday, the characters they were created to hold up and who is I’m sorry, more important than them. You don’t undermine your parent book for the sake of spin-offs. Same way Norman’s turn as an Avengers villain and Flash being Venom is deductive to Peter’s story.


Like I said, it’s a massive cheat to take a character off panel and just bring them back as different, especially for major player like MJ.


Movies and serialized comics are not the same thing. Movies are shorter and quicker forms of storytelling. They require big jumps to make the story work but at the same time even then Luke in Jedi was a natural outgrowth from Empire and Empire gave enough indication that he could end up as someone like Jedi Luke.


Isn’t the entire point of ficton that the characters are doing something worth observing. If the aim of the game is character development then that shouldn’t happen off stage and SHOULD be worth watching.


The only times I think it’s ever acceptable is when it’s being done for a very minor character who’s been offstage for a long while and had little to them in the first place, or else the passage of time would require them to be different. E.g. teenage Liz Allan left Spider-Man in ASM #30 only to return years later. A teenager graduating high school cannot be unchanged by life after 3 years living and working in the real world and she wasn’t so important or good a character that the changes needed to be seen, although we were TOLD about them (plus what was okay for 1970s superhero comics which were much more compressed and didn’t have modern innovations like minis and one shots). Mary Jane is too big a character for important life events for her to happen off panel or for time to drastically change her like that.


You forget Mary Jane was within Spider-Man and GOT developed independent from Peter’s story. Her entire origin was related from her to Peter but it was her story. The stuff about Jonathan Caesar and her struggling to be taken seriously as an actress happened in Spider-Man but it was independnat from Peter. And sometimes it didn’t connect to Peter’s life which was fine. Other times it did, even if that was by virtue of her just being his wife thus their problems being shared.


But the point is moot because yeah she’d get developed independent from peter…but she’d not be independent from Tony. If we’re saying her being tied into Peter is bad then how is it better to tie her into another character? Surely by this logic anything short of a solo series starring MJ would be bad.

Bravo Spidercide! Excellent points. I kind of get what they're trying to do with MJ here, and why Bendis is probably using her and I have no doubts that he's going to use some of the chemistry they had in his avengers run in this story. But what makes me wonder is, what role is MJ going to play for Tony? and what will he bring to her that being in Peter's book wouldn't? Both are bachelors with family issues. Tony is a guy that has his brain everywhere else, so what does MJ get from being around Tony? What's he going to do for her in the long run as far as development goes? And vice versa. We know that Tony will probably see MJ as hot and alluring as far as physically -he saw her as such way back when Peter and her and Aunt May were living with the Avengers, but what can being around Tony add to MJ? Better at business, sure, learning how to manage something larger or be in a relationship that's different then with Peter who is always on the brink, okay yeah I guess. I suppose she'll help him be a better person and get a better grip on why what he did was wrong and how to fix it.

You can't go back to party MJ, that woman left the building years ago, so is she going to be the stabilizer in Tony's life or something else?

[Confuzzled]

The Bendis interview that Kevinroc posted in the previous page showed that Bendis had plans for MJ's character arc that only involved Tony in the sense that he was a superhero other than Peter.

I don't want to spoil next issue, but I think she represents an interesting part of the Marvel Universe. A lot of things get built up and knocked down in the Marvel Universe, and it's not easy if you're a normal person. If you're trying to build something, and there's people knocking stuff down that sucks. So we'll see a little more of that as the issues go.

Bendis is talking about MJ as a character on the greater MU scale, outside of the Spider-Verse, with her trying to chase her dreams and ambitions by stepping out of Peter's shadow. The fact that superheroics still create havoc in her life provides opportunities for interesting commentary on the struggles and issues faced by the Marvel Universe "everyman" (which at this point, MJ is more of than Peter).

[Kurolegacy]

See what I want to see is how Bendis can pull this off without making MJ look like a total hypocrite. I mean being an "everyman" is one thing but when you basically tell off one hero and then start talking crap about being a part of said heroes world and how you don't like what your life is like as a result, you don't jump to another.

[Confuzzled]

See what I want to see is how Bendis can pull this off without making MJ look like a total hypocrite. I mean being an "everyman" is one thing but when you basically tell off one hero and then start talking crap about being a part of said heroes world and how you don't like what your life is like as a result, you don't jump to another.

She didn't. She stayed true to her word and actually shifted base from NYC. It was the superhero world that came crashing (literally) into her life anyway.

Bendis's quote makes it seem that MJ has to deal with the fallout that has on her life. Let's see how Tony factors into the whole thing first.

[jimishim12]

Well no. If your character is on the shelf then by definition hey are neither protagonist nor supporting character. They are in limbo.


I mean for all the years Kaine was absent from Spider-Man he wasn’t his own protagonist. He just didn’t exist.


Also I really don’t like this idea of codifying that it is bad for MJ’s development not ever stemming from herself. By this definition all supporting characters have this big bad problem, as do the villains. But MJ drove her own narrative at times within Spider-Man’s world. A world where she is at her best because that’s where all her history and personal relationships reside. Put aside her romance with Peter, MJ has a long friendship with Harry and Aunt May and Betty brant as well as tensions with Venom and Norman Osborn. The same way current Spider-Man is innately compromised by being out of NYC and away from his cast and regular villains, so to would MJ. This isn’t even getting into the fact that this is prioritizing MJ as a character over Peter himself when that not right since Peter is an older and more popular character as well as the centre of a whole franchise. For the record before anyone says anything my feelings like this would apply if we were trying to spin Joker and Alfred off into Green Lantern or if in Spider-Girl we removed Mayday’s parents and Normie Osborn from her narrative to spin them off or put them in other books. You could do it but it’d undermine Mayday, the characters they were created to hold up and who is I’m sorry, more important than them. You don’t undermine your parent book for the sake of spin-offs. Same way Norman’s turn as an Avengers villain and Flash being Venom is deductive to Peter’s story.


Like I said, it’s a massive cheat to take a character off panel and just bring them back as different, especially for major player like MJ.


Movies and serialized comics are not the same thing. Movies are shorter and quicker forms of storytelling. They require big jumps to make the story work but at the same time even then Luke in Jedi was a natural outgrowth from Empire and Empire gave enough indication that he could end up as someone like Jedi Luke.


Isn’t the entire point of ficton that the characters are doing something worth observing. If the aim of the game is character development then that shouldn’t happen off stage and SHOULD be worth watching.


The only times I think it’s ever acceptable is when it’s being done for a very minor character who’s been offstage for a long while and had little to them in the first place, or else the passage of time would require them to be different. E.g. teenage Liz Allan left Spider-Man in ASM #30 only to return years later. A teenager graduating high school cannot be unchanged by life after 3 years living and working in the real world and she wasn’t so important or good a character that the changes needed to be seen, although we were TOLD about them (plus what was okay for 1970s superhero comics which were much more compressed and didn’t have modern innovations like minis and one shots). Mary Jane is too big a character for important life events for her to happen off panel or for time to drastically change her like that.


You forget Mary Jane was within Spider-Man and GOT developed independent from Peter’s story. Her entire origin was related from her to Peter but it was her story. The stuff about Jonathan Caesar and her struggling to be taken seriously as an actress happened in Spider-Man but it was independnat from Peter. And sometimes it didn’t connect to Peter’s life which was fine. Other times it did, even if that was by virtue of her just being his wife thus their problems being shared.


But the point is moot because yeah she’d get developed independent from peter…but she’d not be independent from Tony. If we’re saying her being tied into Peter is bad then how is it better to tie her into another character? Surely by this logic anything short of a solo series starring MJ would be bad.

tl;dr if MJ ain't doing ninja techniques on GG or flipping on Pymjets fighting Black Cat, then I ain't interested in a solo narrative of MJ. It's not what she can add as a character, it's what she can do, she's character thats created in a superhero story and plot, even Frodo baggins(The POV non fighter) had to fight in LOTR to fit the story about him and the one ring and adapting to the swords and fantasy world himself.

[Kevinroc]

tl;dr if MJ ain't doing ninja techniques on GG or flipping on Pymjets fighting Black Cat, then I ain't interested in a solo narrative of MJ. It's not what she can add as a character, it's what she can do, she's character thats created in a superhero story and plot, even Frodo baggins(The POV non fighter) had to fight in LOTR to fit the story about him and the one ring and adapting to the swords and fantasy world himself.

You do know characters have value even if they aren't trying to get into the thick of it, right?

(And you completely ignored MJ defeating The Swarm, The Chameleon, and shooting the Green Goblin.)

[jimishim12]

You do know characters have value even if they aren't trying to get into the thick of it, right?

(And you completely ignored MJ defeating The Swarm, The Chameleon, and shooting the Green Goblin.)

What value is she useful for independently without spiderman un a superhero franchise, without playing the supporting role to a hero. The arguement is mj can have her own tales and focal point as a comuc without spidey or being connected to his world, but she has nothing special to offer as a normal and powerless female support character.

Yeah and alfred and lois beat up superman and dr psycho respectively , doesnt mean they can fight them regularly and equally, mj without pis is not a compelling character against any foe with no fighting skills and powers. Can mj beat or hurt villian of spidey's bloodlusted against her and completely serious about wanting her dead. MJ beat villians when they where they didn't treat her as a threat and weren't a priority, it was always something or someone else that caught their interests and mj took opportunity and used it against them. Could she get the lucky shot to more dangerous foes like electro or the smybiotes if it happened is the million dollar question.

[Agent Z]

What value is she useful for independently without spiderman un a superhero franchise, without playing the supporting role to a hero. The arguement is mj can have her own tales and focal point as a comuc without spidey or being connected to his world, but she has nothing special to offer as a normal and powerless female support character.

Yeah and alfred and lois beat up superman and dr psycho respectively , doesnt mean they can fight them regularly and equally, mj without pis is not a compelling character against any foe with no fighting skills and powers. Can mj beat or hurt villian of spidey's bloodlusted against her and completely serious about wanting her dead. MJ beat villians when they where they didn't treat her as a threat and weren't a priority, it was always something or someone else that caught their interests and mj took opportunity and used it against them. Could she get the lucky shot to more dangerous foes like electro or the smybiotes if it happened is the million dollar question.

You act like Peter doesn't recieve his own share of pis and quite frankly they are worse than MJ's. Beating Fire Lord and taking down the entire X-Men team to name a few.

MJ has worth as a human character in a superhero universe by reminding readers that normal people can exist and have agency in such a world. Quite frankly superhero comics could stand to treat civilian characters as actual characters regardless of power or skill. It makes the story more believable and the genre less childish and shallow.

[Kurolegacy]

She didn't. She stayed true to her word and actually shifted base from NYC. It was the superhero world that came crashing (literally) into her life anyway.

Bendis's quote makes it seem that MJ has to deal with the fallout that has on her life. Let's see how Tony factors into the whole thing first.

She hasn't yet. However the fact that Bendis is making her a support character to Tony means that she will. I just hope that this acts as a lesson to her that even when one tries to get away from the hero world, there's no real getting away from it so long as you're in the MU and she realizes what a jerk she's been to Peter, especially at a time he really could've used her.

[Kevinroc]

What value is she useful for independently without spiderman un a superhero franchise, without playing the supporting role to a hero. The arguement is mj can have her own tales and focal point as a comuc without spidey or being connected to his world, but she has nothing special to offer as a normal and powerless female support character.

Yeah and alfred and lois beat up superman and dr psycho respectively , doesnt mean they can fight them regularly and equally, mj without pis is not a compelling character against any foe with no fighting skills and powers. Can mj beat or hurt villian of spidey's bloodlusted against her and completely serious about wanting her dead. MJ beat villians when they where they didn't treat her as a threat and weren't a priority, it was always something or someone else that caught their interests and mj took opportunity and used it against them. Could she get the lucky shot to more dangerous foes like electro or the smybiotes if it happened is the million dollar question.

If MJ does nothing to contribute to the villain's defeat, she's useless. If she contributes to the villain's defeat (or outright defeats the villain herself), it's PIS.

[Tuck]

Eh, society is in a constant flux of change and media should reflect the evolution. Modernist philosophy hardly created superheroes. If you are talking about the modern American superhero specifically, even he is just a processed version of the hero and god mythologies that have existed for millennia before.

We've been mired in postmodernism since WWII. It's a cul-de-sac we're stuck in with no idea how to get out. We're experiencing a disconcerting lack of evolution is what I'm saying.

And the reason it didn't happen is because the writer who brought her back to the books was never the writer who wrote her out of the books. The device you are suggesting requires long term planning and given the nature of Marvel and its changing staff, editorial long term planning too.

It doesn't. All it takes is for the creative team who brings the character back to have developments in mind and an idea of what happened in the character's life while she was absent from publishing. Bendis has already done a tiny bit of this. There was nothing in previous stories indicating Mary Jane was moving to Chicago.

[Tuck]

Well no. If your character is on the shelf then by definition hey are neither protagonist nor supporting character. They are in limbo.

If you were to write out a story about what the character did and what happened to her during the period she was absent from publishing, she would be the protagonist of that story; that that story is not hashed out and/or published notwithstanding.

Also I really don’t like this idea of codifying that it is bad for MJ’s development not ever stemming from herself.

There's a thread to the discussion. And granted, it stems from things that have been discussed in previous threads about MJ and some members stating their wish for her to get "independent" development elsewhere in the Marvel Universe (often suggesting she receive her own book). I'm working off of that want present in some readers. I've stated plenty of times that I have zero problem with supporting characters being supporting characters. And there's something unique here about MJ for some reason. Another poster mentioned in another thread that no one is clamoring for Foggy Nelson to be moved elsewhere in the MU for better development potential.

[Kevinroc]

It doesn't. All it takes is for the creative team who brings the character back to have developments in mind and an idea of what happened in the character's life while she was absent from publishing. Bendis has already done a tiny bit of this. There was nothing in previous stories indicating Mary Jane was moving to Chicago.

This is one of the big things with the Post-Secret Wars (2015) status quo. That's what happens when they have an 8 month time-skip. There was no indication Ben Grimm would be joining the Guardians of the Galaxy, for example.