Finch/Azzarello Comparisons and Contrasts

[Dr. Poison]

Care to elaborate how it "makes totally perfect sense?" This was pre-king Zeke, he had no domain over Hera at the time.

I'd also like to hear an explanation for this as it makes *ZERO* sense to me.

[Tayswift]

He already had hints of memory (as Silvanus has put it) to recognize Hippoltya; so if we really don't know just how much he could recall, is it really a retcon? And he got Hippolyta killed in Azzarello's run. I doubt his plan included killing the male Amazons, but I doubt he would care.

Deja Vu can explain very well. doesn't mean he remember anything, it can also be impulse. It is just a storytelling technique, nothing more. He can't recall, that is what Azzarello stated on his run, that is th whole point. Now change to made him an active player is a complete retcon

[Awonder]

I'd also like to hear an explanation for this as it makes *ZERO* sense to me.

Hera not being able to restore Hippolyta feels very plot-forced to me. It seems to really only exist so that Diana could play queen and order the return of the male Amazons. I would much rather have had Hera restore Hippolyta, and Diana convince her mother it's the right thing to do.

Deja Vu can explain very well. doesn't mean he remember anything, it can also be impulse. It is just a storytelling technique, nothing more. He can't recall, that is what Azzarello stated on his run, that is th whole point. Now change to made him an active player is a complete retcon

I'm not buying the "impulse" theory. Call it "deja vu," if you want, but it is recognition and active choice to block Hera. And now that's he's king, why would he still be limited to pre-king capabilities?

Besides, Zeke wanting to help Donna was cute.

[Silvanus]

I think we tend to forgive more the more we enjoy a story.

Absolutely--or, in your case, we tend to forgive more the more we are playing devil's advocate and trying to argue that a bad story isn't that much worse than another story.

Zeke couldn't simply teleport to Olympus before becoming king, but now that he is king, why wouldn't he be more powerful?

He might be more powerful, but that doesn't mean he has to know how to use his power. If he doesn't know how to walk, he doesn't have to know how to teleport either. I'm not saying it's a continuity problem; of course she can say that he's getting more powerful and learning to use his powers--but I wish she wouldn't, because I think it defeats the storytelling version of turning Zeus into an infant.

For example, Zola has to be taken to Hades so Zeus/Zeke can incubate faster to be born in time to be restored to the throne before First Born has destroyed everything.

Interesting, but I think that this is an assumption and not the only possibility. The First Born arrived earlier than expected, according to Cassandra or one of her people (in issue 13, I think.) Maybe this is because Zeke was born earlier than expected; we know that Zeus expected the FB to return, as per their "bargain," when Zeus' throne was vacated, and maybe Zeus deemed that it wouldn't be officially vacated until he was reborn as a new person. After all, if he needed to have Zeke born 9 months before a certain date, couldn't Zeus have just impregnated Zola nine months before that date, instead of planning a detour through hell?

[Awonder]

Absolutely--or, in your case, we tend to forgive more the more we are playing devil's advocate and trying to argue that a bad story isn't that much worse than another story.



He might be more powerful, but that doesn't mean he has to know how to use his power. If he doesn't know how to walk, he doesn't have to know how to teleport either. I'm not saying it's a continuity problem; of course she can say that he's getting more powerful and learning to use his powers--but I wish she wouldn't, because I think it defeats the storytelling version of turning Zeus into an infant.

Now, you're calling Finch the "devil?" Shame on you. While I don't think it's all great stuff, I honestly don't think her story is as bad as some are painting it. And, I'm quite enjoying being on the positive side for a change.

Zeke conveniently knew how to use his power in Azzarello's run, too. It's not like he randomly knocks Diana out the way he did Cassandra nor does he turn Hippolyta into a dragon, right? And teleporting seems to be the only clear thing that comes from getting a chair on Olympus; so, I'm good with that. Making Donna Fate might be too much (waiting to see more), but I'm fine with teleporting and restoring (only because that was previously established).

Azzarello already ruined Zeus as an infant, in my book; too powerful and should not be king. But, since it is already that way, Finch hasn't really ruined it for me.

[Tayswift]

I'm not buying the "impulse" theory. Call it "deja vu," if you want, but it is recognition and active choice to block Hera. And now that's he's king, why would he still be limited to pre-king capabilities?

Besides, Zeke wanting to help Donna was cute.

why would even zeke want to help donna? for all you are saying he is a massive jerk, that killed many people and tortured others. why would he even cares for a nobody likes Donna. make zero sense.

well that is just like movies/tv shows when people have a special connection (parents/past lifes lovers) there is a special click. it is only that. We don't know he blocked Hera, nothing on Azzarello run said that he blocked Hera from doing anything.

[Gaelforce]

Please do not reply to forum violations as it just means there's more for me to clean up

Also, language, please

[numberthirty]

Care to elaborate how it "makes totally perfect sense?" This was pre-king Zeke, he had no domain over Hera at the time.

I'd also like to hear an explanation for this as it makes *ZERO* sense to me.

Like I said, it's fairly simple.

First, you are going on the assumption that Hera was under control while Zeke was not yet at full power. How does that make any sense?

What does make sense is power and how long the players have had it. Think about Zeke. Think about Hera. Makes perfect sense.

[Silvanus]

It's hard for me to really judge the plot points concering the Fates without knowing too much about the Fates in this version. Do we even know who killed them, yet?

No--somebody who called them "sisters" and had word balloons with wavy borders, but I think that's all we know. My guess (though not my hope) is Athena, in owl-woman form, executing Zeus's plan. Seems like it's probably not Eirene, who was apparently surprised to see Ares and Apollo return (which was, as I understand it, a consequence of the two Fate). I think Strife, who sent Donna to the Fates, is still a possibility.

[Awonder]

Interesting, but I think that this is an assumption and not the only possibility. The First Born arrived earlier than expected, according to Cassandra or one of her people (in issue 13, I think.) Maybe this is because Zeke was born earlier than expected; we know that Zeus expected the FB to return, as per their "bargain," when Zeus' throne was vacated, and maybe Zeus deemed that it wouldn't be officially vacated until he was reborn as a new person. After all, if he needed to have Zeke born 9 months before a certain date, couldn't Zeus have just impregnated Zola nine months before that date, instead of planning a detour through hell?

You'd have to ask Zeus. After all, he's the one that thought it was a great idea to get the ball rolling by making Zola a target; why not just let her have her baby in secret (besides that it would make a boring story)? Lots of plot-convenient things have to happen because the plot doesn't work otherwise; this is true for both of Zeus-Zeke's plans (Azzarello and Finch).

why would even zeke want to help donna? for all you are saying he is a massive jerk, that killed many people and tortured others. why would he even cares for a nobody likes Donna. make zero sense.

well that is just like movies/tv shows when people have a special connection (parents/past lifes lovers) there is a special click. it is only that. We don't know he blocked Hera, nothing on Azzarello run said that he blocked Hera from doing anything.

Zeus is a massive jerk, but maybe with his own start-over of sorts he feels drawn to someone else who could use a start-over?

You're right that we don't know for sure that it was Zeke blocking Hera, but I think he's the best guess in trying to make some sense of it. No explanation from Azzarello is not a good explanation.

Like I said, it's fairly simple.

First, you are going on the assumption that Hera was under control while Zeke was not yet at full power. How does that make any sense?

What does make sense is power and how long the players have had it. Think about Zeke. Think about Hera. Makes perfect sense.


Edit: I forgot that Dr. Poison didn't read most of the run. That being the case, I could see it not making much sense.

I have read the whole run (several times), and I still don't know what you are talking about. Care to spell it out for me? Are you saying that because Hera was restored to godhood after Zeke was born that Zeke automatically has more power than her?

No--somebody who called them "sisters" and had word balloons with wavy borders, but I think that's all we know. My guess (though not my hope) is Athena, in owl-woman form, executing Zeus's plan. Seems like it's probably not Eirene, who was apparently surprised to see Ares and Apollo return (which was, as I understand it, a consequence of the two Fate). I think Strife, who sent Donna to the Fates, is still a possibility.

Who killed the Fates - as well as how and why, of course - are the make or break of it. For now, it kind of intrigues me. Strife is probably the best guess. Like you, I don't want it to be Athena, esp if she's just following dad's orders. Her not having her own plan in Azzarello's run was a big disappointment; that's why (so far?) Rucka's Athena is best. Maybe it's someone we haven't seen, yet?

[numberthirty]

I have read the whole run (several times), and I still don't know what you are talking about. Care to spell it out for me? Are you saying that because Hera was restored to godhood after Zeke was born that Zeke automatically has more power than her?

It is very likely that Zeke had his powers from birth. Hera is stripped to "baseline human" for much of the series. She regains her powers a matter of hours before attempting to undo what she did to the Amazons.

That Zeke has enough juice to bring Hippolyta part way back where Hera could not doesn't seem unusual. It's totally sensible.

[Silvanus]

You'd have to ask Zeus. After all, he's the one that thought it was a great idea to get the ball rolling by making Zola a target; why not just let her have her baby in secret (besides that it would make a boring story)? Lots of plot-convenient things have to happen because the plot doesn't work otherwise; this is true for both of Zeus-Zeke's plans (Azzarello and Finch).

What did he actually do to make Zola a target (beyond impregnating her, of course)? Do we see actual evidence that he had Hera tipped off or something, or are you just scribbling in the margins? (Sorry, but I believe it's mandatory to ask this of the person who is trying to be positive. Snarkiness aside, I wouldn't be all that surprised if there is evidence that Zeus intended for Hera to know, and I've just forgotten about it; is there?) It's not like Hera hadn't made such discoveries before; see Sirracca's back story. Zeus, as Athena says in 35, intended Strife to spill the beans to Diana about Zeus being her father; but she could have done this in some other circumstances if Hera hadn't found out about Zola. Zeus was counting on Strife's trouble-making nature, and certainly Hera finding out about Hippolyta and Diana was not an unlikely side effect of using that nature; but I'm not sure Hera's jealousy was a necessary part of the plan--at least, not until Finch's version of the plan made it so that Hippolyta had to be petrified and destroyed for a future Fate to be born.

ETA--I see you mentioned your reasoning about why Zeus must have wanted Hera to know earlier today:

Then, Zeus sets in motion a plan that reveals his secret affair (because Hippoltya's lie about Diana's birth requires Hera didn't use her all seeing mirror to see Zeus repeatedly attacking Hippoltya into "love" nor her pregnancy nor asking the other gods who answered Hippolyta's prayer),

Respectfully, I don't think this logically follows. That she missed spotting an affair that happened 23 years ago doesn't necessarily mean that she couldn't spotted another affair, just as she once spotted Zeus's affair with Sirracca's mother. A batter doesn't have to bat either 1000 or 0.

There's way too much selfishness in there for it to be love.

Maybe you have a more idealistic notion of love than I do. I'm not completely undealistic about it; I do believe that the highest forms of love are unselfish. But, even selfish, evil people can be "in love" in some sense of the word, and this "love" can make it unlikely that they will want to have their lover killed on a whim. If you want to be a purist about the word, that's fine--it's probably not a bad word to be purist about--but I would at least like Zeus to have had some feelings of tenderness and affection and respect towards Diana's mother. I think Azz implies that he did, and Azz at least left open the possibility that Zeus had such feelings. But if he planned to have her killed, that makes such tender feelings less likely, to say the least. This isn't necessarily one of my examples of Finc's "bad writing"; it's just a choice that I do not prefer.

Zeus is a massive jerk, but maybe with his own start-over of sorts he feels drawn to someone else who could use a start-over?

I'll try to help out your side on this one; I think Zeus, when he made this plan, was less interested in helping Donna than in exploring her clay-born nature to turn her into an earth-based Fate.

Who killed the Fates - as well as how and why, of course - are the make or break of it. For now, it kind of intrigues me. Strife is probably the best guess. Like you, I don't want it to be Athena, esp if she's just following dad's orders. Her not having her own plan in Azzarello's run was a big disappointment; that's why (so far?) Rucka's Athena is best. Maybe it's someone we haven't seen, yet?

Maybe she;ll do a crossover with her old comic, and the Fates will have been killed by the Cowardly Lion.

[Awonder]

What did he actually do to make Zola a target (beyond impregnating her, of course)? Do we see actual evidence that he had Hera tipped off or something, or are you just scribbling in the margins? (Sorry, but I believe it's mandatory to ask this of the person who is trying to be positive. Snarkiness aside, I wouldn't be all that surprised if there is evidence that Zeus intended for Hera to know, and I've just forgotten about it; is there?) It's not like Hera hadn't made such discoveries before; see Sirracca's back story. Zeus, as Athena says in 35, intended Strife to spill the beans to Diana about Zeus being her father; but she could have done this in some other circumstances if Hera hadn't found out about Zola. Zeus was counting on Strife's trouble-making nature, and certainly Hera finding out about Hippolyta and Diana was not an unlikely side effect of using that nature; but I'm not sure Hera's jealousy was a necessary part of the plan--at least, not until Finch's version of the plan made it so that Hippolyta had to be petrified and destroyed for a future Fate to be born.

Since when do you want to stick to what's between the margins? Don't many of your more positive interpretations require going beyond what's actually on the page to work?

You're right that we don't know for sure that Zeus tipped off Hera - got a better explanation? Why tell Strife and count on her to spill the beans if you really are trying to hide it from Hera? Even if we go with Hera just happened to find out, that's rather plot-convenient, no?

Again, I ask, isn't there a difference between knowing Hippolyta will be turned to clay (and destroyed) and planning it? It's not on the page that Zeus planned each and every event that transpired, right? Eta- besides, we're leaving out that Hippolyta is not in the statute, she's now part of the island.

ETA--I see you mentioned your reasoning about why Zeus must have wanted Hera to know earlier today:

Respectfully, I don't think this logically follows. That she missed spotting an affair that happened 23 years ago doesn't necessarily mean that she couldn't spotted another affair, just as she once spotted Zeus's affair with Sirracca's mother. A batter doesn't have to bat either 1000 or 0.

Um, that's not really my reasoning for why Zeus must want Hera to know - that's me mocking the absurdity of it all.

You're right that Hera doesn't have to bat a 1000. But an island of all women, a husband that can't stop cheating, and an all-seeing pool? Hera wouldn't be watching that island like a hawk? Zeus visits Hippolyta several times, Hera misses it all? He visits Zola once, Hera is there the next day? The goddess of women doesn't bother to pay attention to a woman's prayer for a child? Hera never sees a preggers Hippolyta? Hera never bothers to ask around Olympus who answered the prayer granting life to a clay baby? That sounds like something Hera would want to know about.

Lots of plot-convenience but not a lot of sense.

Maybe you have a more idealistic notion of love than I do. I'm not completely undealistic about it; I do believe that the highest forms of love are unselfish. But, even selfish, evil people can be "in love" in some sense of the word, and this "love" can make it unlikely that they will want to have their lover killed on a whim. If you want to be a purist about the word, that's fine--it's probably not a bad word to be purist about--but I would at least like Zeus to have had some feelings of tenderness and affection and respect towards Diana's mother. I think Azz implies that he did, and Azz at least left open the possibility that Zeus had such feelings. But if he planned to have her killed, that makes such tender feelings less likely, to say the least. This isn't necessarily one of my examples of Finc's "bad writing"; it's just a choice that I do not prefer.

Actually, I'm quite practical about love. If you are gambling with my life (and, more importantly, the life of my child) for your own pleasure, then, no, I don't believe you love me.

You wanting to believe it's love doesn't make it so. Nor does Azzarello just calling it love make it believable. And the dumbest part of all was Hippolyta's "I won't tell you about how I fell in love with your father, but let me tell you about the sex." No wonder Diana stormed off.

This was not a good choice, and it wasn't well-done.

I'll try to help out your side on this one; I think Zeus, when he made this plan, was less interested in helping Donna than in exploring her clay-born nature to turn her into an earth-based Fate.

Thanks for the assist. To add to that, the earth-based Fate (props to mother Gaea, I like that) would not be as dependent on the belief of men which, in turn, ties into the immortality of the gods.

[Awonder]

It is very likely that Zeke had his powers from birth. Hera is stripped to "baseline human" for much of the series. She regains her powers a matter of hours before attempting to undo what she did to the Amazons.

That Zeke has enough juice to bring Hippolyta part way back where Hera could not doesn't seem unusual. It's totally sensible.

That doesn't work in my mind. Zeke is a newborn baby; even if he is more powerful, how would he know how to use it all right now? Hera's power is newly restored, but she's an adult with countless years worth of practice in using her power. She hasn't even been without her power for long enough to be rusty.

So, no, this part doesn't work for me.

[numberthirty]

That doesn't work in my mind. Zeke is a newborn baby; even if he is more powerful, how would he know how to use it all right now? Hera's power is newly restored, but she's an adult with countless years worth of practice in using her power. She hasn't even been without her power for long enough to be rusty.

So, no, this part doesn't work for me.

Your problem with "How would he?" becomes a non-issue once we see him do it(something that goes double when we have an obvious example of Zeke knowing how to use the power prior to bringing Hippolyta part of the way back).

At that point, it is more "Reader has decided this doesn't work." than "This doesn't make sense in the story the reader has seen."

As for Hera, you are still looking at it from the wrong angle. It's not "Been back long enough not to be rusty." It's "Been back long enough to be at one hundred percent?"

Zeke has obviously been at one hundred percent(if not a lower percentage and getting more powerful) for a longer time.