Dark Avengers/Dark Reign Appreciation: He lost, they won...

[Darthkostis]

You know, I find it strange that nobody talks about this team. It was a huge deal back then, but nowadays it's as if it never happened. Well, okay, Moonstone has dissappeared, Osborn is the Goblin again, Ares is dead, Daken is missing, no member is still active to make anyone go "hey, I loved X in Dark Avengers, does anyone remember that?". But thing is, the book was great. It dipped a bit during the end, but the first few isues were gold. Deodato brought his A game and the stories were fun and read wonderfully. I'm no Bendis fan, but that was the one book that I felt he did "get". The best parts were always the interactions between the villains. Karla's mind games and comments on Spider-Man "manhood", Daken's manipulations, Osborn's descent, it was all good stuff.

Personally I like a bit of sex in my books, as I think it makes the characters more real. No one thinks like a boy scout all day, men and women both want to get it on sometimes. And that's what made their interactions gold. They were bad people, who were not ashamed, and most importantly, they "embraced" their guilty pleasures. Bullseye was a creep, Karla was a manipulative b!tch, Gargan was freaking nuts, etc, etc. And they all came together in order to create a brilliant title. The Noh-Varr/Karla scene was particularly great IMO because it treate sex like a normal thing. People do it and enjoy it, and that's it. It didn't try to hide it or pretend it was something else, it legit showed it, which is pretty rare.

Either way, I think the book deserves some more attention, and I'd gladly read an AU where Osborn's Dark Reign never went to hell. Honestly, I though that both Siege and Heroic Age were pretty luckster. DR was a breath of fresh air, and I loved every moment of it. So, post your pics, disscussions and anything else. Hell, even shipping is appropriate to this thread! I'll start by asking you: If you could play around with the team a bit, how would you modify it? Personally:

-I'd keep: Oz, Karla, Daken, Bulls, Bob, Noh and Ares.
-Add Red Hulk and Swordsman (Andreas).
-Swap Venom (I'd keep him in the new Thunderbolts) with Superior Spider-Man (it'd need some scalling, but I'd love to see Ock try and act heroic while he's in such a team but also has Peter's ghost nudging him).
-I'd do away with the Menace and Gabriel Stacy sub-plot and have Harry become the American Son due to "Peter" convincing him to.
-I'd have liked to add more women, but there really are no female villains that can work as "heroines".
-I'd also rework the Cabal a bit: Namor, Osborn, Doom, Loki & Emma (as the new Hellfire Club Headmistress).

[Kieran_Frost]

LOVED that team and that comic. The most beautiful successor to Warren Ellis' Thunderbolts. Still my favourite Avengers comic to date.

[Mr MajestiK]

This book was actually pretty good for the simple fact that Osborne and his team were just so damned powerfully connected on all levels to such a degree that the heroes just couldn't seem to organize long enough to deal with them.

[The Cool Thatguy]

This book was actually pretty good for the simple fact that Osborne and his team were just so damned powerfully connected on all levels to such a degree that the heroes just couldn't seem to organize long enough to deal with them.

That was more PIS than anything else.

Never once did they so much as try to reveal to the public who Norman's Avengers really were and despite it being said like a million times, they never really tried to provoke Norman into a breakdown.

I think most people ignore it because it's so easy to ignore. None of the Dark Avengers were developed as characters, the villains were forgettable and the biggest thing that happened in the series (Doom returning to Latveria) was really just a return to status qou.

It was a great idea, but one Bendis has no real idea how to execute, but knew exactly how to drag out (per usual).

Though the Avengers Initiative series was pretty awesome...

[Darthkostis]

LOVED that team and that comic. The most beautiful successor to Warren Ellis' Thunderbolts. Still my favourite Avengers comic to date.

You and me both. Lester's phychotic 'episodes", Noh's innocence, Karla's manipulations, everything was on point. All characters were different enough and provied tons of "Bendis Talk" material. I just wish the stories would've been better, because let's face it, nothing substancial ever happened. It's just that both the art and the interactions between the members of the team were so good, that I managed to ignore the rest of the "plot". But truth be told, I believe it was cut far too short. We needed more issues, and the fact that the last few were caught in an event didn't help.

This book was actually pretty good for the simple fact that Osborne and his team were just so damned powerfully connected on all levels to such a degree that the heroes just couldn't seem to organize long enough to deal with them.

That as well. The whole PR thing was a refreshing change, and it showed just how gulible the GA is. Here's this maniac commanding his own team and the average joe goes "eh, I guess they're heroes". I loved that and it created a very nice "environment" for the book.

That was more PIS than anything else.

Never once did they so much as try to reveal to the public who Norman's Avengers really were and despite it being said like a million times, they never really tried to provoke Norman into a breakdown.

I think most people ignore it because it's so easy to ignore. None of the Dark Avengers were developed as characters, the villains were forgettable and the biggest thing that happened in the series (Doom returning to Latveria) was really just a return to status qou.

It was a great idea, but one Bendis has no real idea how to execute, but knew exactly how to drag out (per usual).

Though the Avengers Initiative series was pretty awesome...

Actually Hawkeye tried to, but nothing ever came out of it. Plus, Osborn was actively hunting down other superheroes, so that didn't make things easy. Add to the fact that SHIELD was non-existant, and you basically have a few heroes in hiding against all of the US. And it's not like they had massively powerful people on their side. It made sense to me that they never managed to bring Oz down, his own hybris did.

Nah, IMO its saving grace was that the characters were developed. Bob was trying to cope with his illness, Ares wanted to create a better world for his son Karla wanted to become the top dog again, etc, etc. I do think they could have done more, but as far as characterization goes, it did very well in my book. As for the plots, yeah, they were forgettable. Morgana Le Fey and imaginary Molecule Man didn't make me jump out of my seat. But, like I said, its selling point were the interactions between the various Dark Avengers.

[Master Planner]

Dark Reign has some good moments,but it needed a lot of PIS in order to work.But i enjoyed the stories where Norman just tried to hold his power against guys who are big league,both heroes and villains.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Actually Hawkeye tried to, but nothing ever came out of it. Plus, Osborn was actively hunting down other superheroes, so that didn't make things easy. Add to the fact that SHIELD was non-existant, and you basically have a few heroes in hiding against all of the US. And it's not like they had massively powerful people on their side. It made sense to me that they never managed to bring Oz down, his own hybris did.

Actually, Hawkeye went on television and delivered a Bendis rambling speech that did nothing (per usual). He never said "Norman's Hawkeye? That's mass murderer Bullseye. His Spider-Man? Mac Gargan. He ate people on television, remember?"

In New Avengers, Norman was Colonel Clink played straight. He'd attack the Avengers, they get away, he'd shake his fist, rinse repeat. No real tactical thought was given to 'How to end this' that wasn't cliche stupid.

In Dark Avengers, they were just killing time until Siege.

It was really only in Avengers Initiative that the idea, using PR tactics both ways, spies, etc that the Dark Reign idea was executed well.

Nah, IMO its saving grace was that the characters were developed. Bob was trying to cope with his illness, Ares wanted to create a better world for his son Karla wanted to become the top dog again, etc, etc. I do think they could have done more, but as far as characterization goes, it did very well in my book. As for the plots, yeah, they were forgettable. Morgana Le Fey and imaginary Molecule Man didn't make me jump out of my seat. But, like I said, its selling point were the interactions between the various Dark Avengers.

Honestly, I never really saw that with Bendis' Dark Avengers. Sentry was unreadable (figuratively and literally), Ares was a rabid dog, and Karla...

Don't get me started. Her 'manipulations' are just her banging members, with the worst results possible. She drove off No-varr (I'm at a loss to see how it helped her) and was banging Bullseye...because reasons?

Karla's skill at manipulation, long established, were non existent under Bendis. We were supposed to think that her and Bullseye having sex was her undermining Norman, but I'm hard pressed to see how. When they have to deal with the Molecule Man, Karla acts like a rabid dog, to the point that Owen says that there's no point in talking to her.

Lastly, if Daken wasn't on the team, would anyone have noticed?

The idea of Dark Reign, the villains in charge, is a neat idea. But what we got was barely that, and poorly executed.

[Darthkostis]

Dark Reign has some good moments,but it needed a lot of PIS in order to work.But i enjoyed the stories where Norman just tried to hold his power against guys who are big league,both heroes and villains.

Eh, everything requires PIS at one point or another these days. It's nigh impossible to write a good story, while also respecting continuity and not feature one PIS moment. It's doable, but not exactly easy. Had it been someone else instead of Bendis, maybe DR could have been better. But as it stands, I still enjoyed the heck out of it.

Actually, Hawkeye went on television and delivered a Bendis rambling speech that did nothing (per usual). He never said "Norman's Hawkeye? That's mass murderer Bullseye. His Spider-Man? Mac Gargan. He ate people on television, remember?"

In New Avengers, Norman was Colonel Clink played straight. He'd attack the Avengers, they get away, he'd shake his fist, rinse repeat. No real tactical thought was given to 'How to end this' that wasn't cliche stupid.

In Dark Avengers, they were just killing time until Siege.

It was really only in Avengers Initiative that the idea, using PR tactics both ways, spies, etc that the Dark Reign idea was executed well.



Honestly, I never really saw that with Bendis' Dark Avengers. Sentry was unreadable (figuratively and literally), Ares was a rabid dog, and Karla...

Don't get me started. Her 'manipulations' are just her banging members, with the worst results possible. She drove off No-varr (I'm at a loss to see how it helped her) and was banging Bullseye...because reasons?

Karla's skill at manipulation, long established, were non existent under Bendis. We were supposed to think that her and Bullseye having sex was her undermining Norman, but I'm hard pressed to see how. When they have to deal with the Molecule Man, Karla acts like a rabid dog, to the point that Owen says that there's no point in talking to her.

Lastly, if Daken wasn't on the team, would anyone have noticed?

The idea of Dark Reign, the villains in charge, is a neat idea. But what we got was barely that, and poorly executed.

Oh, I agree with all of these points. Maybe I didn't phrase it correctly. What I wanted to say was that I mostly enjoyed the interactions between them. You know, the "banter" between the team members. Them sitting in a table and talking about how their vies on Spider-Man, insulting each other, that kind of stuff. As I said, the plots were forgetable and the book didn't really have a direction. But, IMO, it's a worth a read once in a while due to the visuals and the banter. It's essentially a pop-corn flick turned into a comic-book. It's not some grand epic, but it's good for a relaxing afternoon.

Either way, the idea was great, it's just that Bendis wasn't the right guy for it. Ellis would have killed it, but alas, BMB was what we got. But at least his banter worked this time, to the extent that it made the book quite enjoyable, that's what I'm getting at. It's just that it was such a great concept and Marvel never really did anything grand with it. The status quo came back, and it was as if these things never happened.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Eh, everything requires PIS at one point or another these days. It's nigh impossible to write a good story, while also respecting continuity and not feature one PIS moment. It's doable, but not exactly easy. Had it been someone else instead of Bendis, maybe DR could have been better. .

Ya know, an easy way to get around alot of the suspension of disbelief would have been for Norman to use The Hood and his people to pull false flag operations.

Hood's people start making a mess. Norman's people swoop in, and solve it in front of the cameras, and boost his approval ratings.

Instead, we're supposed to believe that Norman took all of Hood's people legit because what can go wrong being responsible for that many sociopaths?

[XPac]

Ya know, an easy way to get around alot of the suspension of disbelief would have been for Norman to use The Hood and his people to pull false flag operations.

Hood's people start making a mess. Norman's people swoop in, and solve it in front of the cameras, and boost his approval ratings.

Instead, we're supposed to believe that Norman took all of Hood's people legit because what can go wrong being responsible for that many sociopaths?

Of course you could argue Norman was just expanding on what was already happening under Stark. The Thunderbolts after Civil War were a bunch of sociopaths that were suppossedly kept on a short leash.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Of course you could argue Norman was just expanding on what was already happening under Stark. The Thunderbolts after Civil War were a bunch of sociopaths that were suppossedly kept on a short leash.

Except that 1) Those were a case by case basis, not en-mass and 2) none of the Thunderbolts presented were sociopaths. Bullseye was never meant to be seen, and Venom was said to actually be a federal agent, not Mac.

[CraigTheCylon]

Ah, Dark Avengers. Tied with Avengers Prime in my mind as Bendis' only worthwhile tales during his impossibly long stay on the A-books. Fair chunk of it's down to the format suiting Bendispeak better than usual; the way he scripts inter-team interaction always feels less like old friends shooting the s*** and more like irritable college roommates passive-aggressively bitching at each other in the hopes that someone'll leave. That's terrible for the world's premier superhero team, but perfect for a squadron of murderous S.O.B.s with almost nothing in common besides 'evil', being forced to co-operate under one roof at the behest of a forty-something white guy with corn rows.

Could've used some more substantial stories and better villains after the opening Morgan Le Fay affair, and another lady on the team wouldn't hurt (Viper in a red wig as Black Widow? Titania covered in green paint as She-Hulk?), but, yeah, it's that rare Bendis series I'll actually come back to for the sake of enjoyment, not to point fingers and be all "see, THIS is why he sucks".

[Silvermoth]

So who would be in the Dark Avengers today? They can use HydraCap and Doctor Doom as Iron Man obviously.

Maybe M'baku as Black Panther?

[Ken Ashcroft]

is the Sentry still alive post secret wars?

[Digifiend]

No. He was last seen as a zombie horseman of Apocalypse in Uncanny Avengers volume 1, before Secret Wars.