Batman at its worst

[ispacehead]

Having Bane magically know Wayne's ID and wait in the batcave after he was nearly passed out, was pretty lame. For the fight that was being teased for what, 12-15 issues? Batman was already broken, weak, exhausted... and pretty much ANYONE could have taken him at that point.

At the time, it actually added to the tragedy of the story knowing that there was no way Batman could win this time. Bane calclulated everything so that it could only go one way. After barely surviving so much, to be taken down in his own home was quite a big deal at the time.

Did you read it collected, or as it was release?

I tend to believe many of these stories lose their impact when read as a collected edition, or when binge read. You lose out on all of the suspense and anticipation; the latter being my favorite part of serial stories such as these.

[DrNewGod]

... I'm surprised no one's mentioned the Brave and the Bold team-ups, but I've been making my way through those and God help me, they're some of my favorite Batman comics. I don't care. Perfect balance of Silver Age insanity, humor (both un and intentional), art from some of the greats, Batman being Batman and an awe-inspiring roster of the DCU's finest. There's some emotional depth in certain chapters too, like the Queen Bee-Eclipso story, Black Canary, and Wildcat stories. Man, sheeeiiiiitt.

Loved the pre-CoIE B&B. One of my favorites was an E-2 story of Golden Age Batman and The Unknown Soldier in a late WWII adventure.

[batnbreakfast]

No one brought Wargames up, yet? What a surprise. I never want to read about gang wars in Gotham again.

[ispacehead]

Loved the pre-CoIE B&B. One of my favorites was an E-2 story of Golden Age Batman and The Unknown Soldier in a late WWII adventure.

I've only read a few of these. They vary wildly in their portrayal and tonality from what we have today, but I still enjoy the flavor of that era of comics. I guess I should say THOSE eras, as the book lasted through several decades, but you get what I mean. I need to read those start to finish one day.

[taylortexas]

I read The Widening Gyre at the library in one sitting, in a kind of open-mouthed horror. There were a few scattered moments in it that I liked. One of the worst parts about it is the unfinished ending that no one, including Smith, seems to have any interest in revisiting.

I still find it amusing that if Kevin Smith ever returns to finish that story, he very well may be the last person to write Batman in the pre-Flashpoint continuity that so many fans are still desperately asking for. Be careful what you wish for!

I personally don't mind Cacophony and Widening Gyre. There are moments of both that I like and Onomatopoeia is a fun idea for a villain. It's not surprising that people are still upset about not only making Batman wet his pants but doing it during Year One of all things! Bold move, Kev.

[saul_on_the_road_to_damascus]

No one brought Wargames up, yet? What a surprise. I never want to read about gang wars in Gotham again.

War Games (or its precurser war drums) is what got me into comics. specifically stephanie brown on the cover of the trade paper back

[saul_on_the_road_to_damascus]

He was pretty lucky Bruce didn't track him down when he was fresh. Which is pretty much what he would have done if Joker or Penguin had organized a jail break.

Any indication that Bane is as strong without venom as he was with it... is pretty much lip service to build him up again. That's what Venom does. Makes you insanely strong and hard to hurt.

Bane was pretty much Doomsday for Batman. A brand new guy designed entirely to show up and kill/break Batman. He served his purpose well, but bringing him back repeatedly was a mistake.

I enjoyed both Knightfall and Knightsend (didn't care for Knightsquest... or Azbats in general), but that doesn't make Bane less over rated. He wasn't smarter then Batman... he wasn't tougher then Batman... He wasn't a better fighter... He didn't outsmart him... It was just an endurance game that everyone realized was going on at the time. It took a healthy dose of PIS to actually work, and a bit extra PIS for nobody to ever try that game again...

Having Bane magically know Wayne's ID and wait in the batcave after he was nearly passed out, was pretty lame. For the fight that was being teased for what, 12-15 issues? Batman was already broken, weak, exhausted... and pretty much ANYONE could have taken him at that point.

i thought that was the point. Kinda like with hus, bain threw everything he could at bats to break his spirit

[phantom1592]

At the time, it actually added to the tragedy of the story knowing that there was no way Batman could win this time. Bane calclulated everything so that it could only go one way. After barely surviving so much, to be taken down in his own home was quite a big deal at the time.

Did you read it collected, or as it was release?

I tend to believe many of these stories lose their impact when read as a collected edition, or when binge read. You lose out on all of the suspense and anticipation; the latter being my favorite part of serial stories such as these.

It was one of my first big crossovers, and we didn't have a comic store close by. I found part 4 I think at the party store on a spinner rack and worked my butt off trying to collect them all. I think that part 1 or 2 with Amygdala was a BEAST to finally get.

It was impactful at the time, but there was also a lot of advertisement going on spoiling it. All those ads of "Batman is going the one place he never has..... Away." Though at the time I think it was fuzzy if he was going to be killed or just broken. No internet... no forums... just wizard magazine at the time.

Honestly, I don't know if I would have had as much trouble with Bane figuring out the ID, if there was something more to it. The whole 'I studied him so I automatically know him in all disguises...' is pretty lame. LOTS of villains study batman... Practically NOBODY figures it out on a whim. When you have people like Riddler who can never figure it out (FYI I LOVE how they did that in hush...) and his whole schtick is that he solves riddles, just gift wrapping it for Bane was weak. Even Tim Drake figured it out on his own... but it gave some explainations of where and how he discovered it.

That was the weak link of Knightfall for me. They built up this rookie Villain by handwaving anything that would have interfered with him... and then another no-name guy took over for Batman after the breaking and completely schooled Bane in the process. It's a common enough trope... but still. Had they gone with Robin or Nightwing, I would have enjoyed that a lot more. (Loved the Prodigal story Post-knightsend)

Anything someone mentions in this thread is simply "not that good to [them]." That's the nature of the thread.

But, the same writer can write the same basic story twice and one version be better. There is quite a bit of difference between the cartoon and the comic. I like both, but they are very different in many ways, including, natch, that the cartoon doesn't have interruptions.

Exactly. The end of the comic was the final showdown between Todd, Batman and Joker... Batman saves Joker... Joker triggers Bomb.... Cut to Infinite Crisis multiverse Fade... Pick up One year later. That really sucked. That storyline was going WAY too long to just cut out like that. The cartoon actually gave some closure and wrapped it up nicely.

I think it would be even better as an Elseworlds. A truly awesome Elseworlds!!! In the 'real world' not so much. Jason Todd worked so well as the robin who died... that bringing him back like that? it cluttered up the expanding Bat family. It took something away from Batman, and didn't really replace it with anything... and that was about the time that Tim Drake's Robin started spiral too. They had potential with the 'Trained by batman but kills' concept... Taking batman's training and violating his cardinal rule... They could have done more with that... but now he's still packing guns and totally accepted by the family >.<

That sort of plan has been used again, most recently it was the plot of Batman Eternal, where the constant onslaught of villains wore Bruce down so much that he lost a fistfight to Cluemaster.

...

That seems less likely to work nowdays... How was it handled?

I mean, back during Knightfall, Batman was really a solo act. He had Robin, who he didn't trust out of his sight. Drake was still fairly a rookie and Batman was in over protective mode, and Nightwing was 'his own man now' so Bruce nearly killed himself trying to do everything. Now days? He's got 4 robins running around, two or three Batgals, and who knows who is still around from Incorporated... and they do the team thing more efficiently. He has much less trouble calling them up and giving them assignments. Massive breakout should be problematic... but shouldn't be the same as it was 'back in the day'.

[cgh]

Has The Cult been mentioned yet?



Also, the early '80s was an uneven period in Batman comics. The Lazarus Affair was pretty cheesy even in its time.

[kingaliencracker]

Can we count "Last Laugh" as a Batman story? I know it was Joker-centric but it was awful.

I have a certain love for ASB&R. Yes, it's over-the-top ridiculous but sometimes it's okay to see exaggerated versions of beloved characters. And the art was phenomenal.

[batnbreakfast]

Exactly. The end of the comic was the final showdown between Todd, Batman and Joker... Batman saves Joker... Joker triggers Bomb.... Cut to Infinite Crisis multiverse Fade... Pick up One year later. That really sucked. That storyline was going WAY too long to just cut out like that. The cartoon actually gave some closure and wrapped it up nicely.

I think it would be even better as an Elseworlds. A truly awesome Elseworlds!!! In the 'real world' not so much. Jason Todd worked so well as the robin who died... that bringing him back like that? it cluttered up the expanding Bat family. It took something away from Batman, and didn't really replace it with anything... and that was about the time that Tim Drake's Robin started spiral too. They had potential with the 'Trained by batman but kills' concept... Taking batman's training and violating his cardinal rule... They could have done more with that... but now he's still packing guns and totally accepted by the family >.<

My thoughts as well. The family has grown too big. Every generation has their favourite Robin and they all need to be around. It was more interesting with Dick having graduated into Nightwing, another "son" lost in the "war" with Jason, and one Robin only running around. I don't care if its Tim, Damian, Steph or the Easter Bunny but they should draw a line somewhere.

@ cgh: The Cult has fantastic art. Its not what I'd call Batman at his worst but I could understand the story not being to everone's tastes.

[dancj]

Worst graphic novel for me would be Fortunate Son. The story, dialogue, art and characterisation are all awful.

The art was good.

Has The Cult been mentioned yet?

I actually thought that was Jim Starlin's only good Batman story.

[DrNewGod]

...I think [the return of Jason Todd] would be even better as an Elseworlds. A truly awesome Elseworlds!!! In the 'real world' not so much. Jason Todd worked so well as the robin who died... that bringing him back like that? it cluttered up the expanding Bat family. It took something away from Batman, and didn't really replace it with anything... and that was about the time that Tim Drake's Robin started spiral too. They had potential with the 'Trained by batman but kills' concept... Taking batman's training and violating his cardinal rule... They could have done more with that... but now he's still packing guns and totally accepted by the family >.<

You have hit on (IMO) one of the most serious issues with today's DC and Marvel comics. Writers and editors either can't tell the difference between what makes a good alternate-reality tale, versus one that fits well for the on-going title, or they simply don't care as long as they get paid and grow their reputations by telling what they are certain is a super-cool story.

[LoneNecromancer]

Has The Cult been mentioned yet?

It's basically "TDKR was popular so I'm going to try ripping it hard" the comic, but I mean it has entertaining moments. Not sure why you're posting those panels, Jason was one of the highlights of the story.

My thoughts as well. The family has grown too big. Every generation has their favourite Robin and they all need to be around. It was more interesting with Dick having graduated into Nightwing, another "son" lost in the "war" with Jason, and one Robin only running around. I don't care if its Tim, Damian, Steph or the Easter Bunny but they should draw a line somewhere.

They didn't go far enough with the reboot. Should've removed Tim and not let Snyder add more characters to the family. Trimmed it down to one Batgirl, two-ex Robins in Dick and Jason, and then Damian as the current Robin.

In the 'real world' not so much. Jason Todd worked so well as the robin who died... that bringing him back like that? it cluttered up the expanding Bat family. It took something away from Batman, and didn't really replace it with anything... .

Did it really work so well in the real world, though? You'll find a lot of the negative connotations about Batman's apparent inability to make Gotham a better place since supervillains just kept breaking out with apparent ease to murder the people around him, or the child-endangerment or replacable child-soldiers view of the Robins started around Jason's death.

[Aioros22]

My thoughts as well. The family has grown too big. Every generation has their favourite Robin and they all need to be around. It was more interesting with Dick having graduated into Nightwing, another "son" lost in the "war" with Jason, and one Robin only running around. I don't care if its Tim, Damian, Steph or the Easter Bunny but they should draw a line somewhere.

@ cgh: The Cult has fantastic art. Its not what I'd call Batman at his worst but I could understand the story not being to everone's tastes.

The family expanded big time throught the whole 90`s when you had several Batgirls and allies being part of the line.

Did it really work so well in the real world, though? You'll find a lot of the negative connotations about Batman's apparent inability to make Gotham a better place since supervillains just kept breaking out with apparent ease to murder the people around him, or the child-endangerment or replacable child-soldiers view of the Robins started around Jason's death.

Good point.

If the question is about if bringing him back brought nothing to the table when even the opposite side can agree that the potential of a former student having gone rogue is filled with good stories, it kind of ends up being "well, I didn`t like that writer, or that one". Jason`s return as the Red Hood is classic Greek tragedy.

And as such, at its core, Jason is not a villain and neither does he sees himself as one. Even now, with the reboot making him an actual more rounded character and being accepted by the family, he`s accepted exactly because said family knows there are situations that require an approach that they don`t have or aren`t willing to have. This was first well executed in Superman/Batman Annual. The fact he`s back, doing his own stuff and only helping in crisis (which has been the case so far) doesn`t disregard his background and doesn`t turn him just "another one" of the rowdy bunch. It makes him a wildcard. In the end Anakin returns to the Force on his own merits.

So what did we got with it? Greek tragedy, cool action, potential branching characterization you can`t have with anyone else and several sucesseful media, with the recent movie being in the table.

The point of the matter thought is whether Winnick`s run was a bad comic Batman run, and I don`t think it was. UTRH was his finest story and the only thing that brings it down are editorial restraints because of crossover balloney, but when the same writer cleans out filler and presents the same story with the meat and bone and makes it even better, then the story at its basic structure is a good one. The rest of the run was decent with plenty of good Black Mask moments and the art was certainly amazing.