SECRET WAAAAAAAGGGGHH! #8 Spoilers

[jackolover]

Though a longer confrontation between Doom and Thanos might have been fun... quite honestly when one is literally god fights shouldn't last that long. Even Thanos, as powerful as he is, should be badly outclassed by a being with the power of all the Beyonders. For the battle to be any longer than it was argaubly would be PIS given how powerful Doom is supposed to be.

Had Thanos had the gauntlet instead of T'Challa, might have had a real fight. And that might be a nice What If down the road. But right now T'Challa is the only person that has a chance of lasting more than 2 seconds against Doom in a straight fight.

Godlike Doom should have shut the Siege Perilous so the Z's and BP couldn't come through. Doom should have known this was going to happen? But like the Beyonders didn't know Doom could use time travel, Doom couldn't know the little tricks Dr Strange had hidden away either, I suppose? There are some really astounding twists to this story, about what is Dooms limitations. Doom has a bodyguard, Galactus, so why is he worried about swarms of Domain residents flocking to Doomstadt? It's like Doom is deliberately letting things slip through his grasp, like a very bad movie actor being a ham. I can almost see Doom reading the script in the background, "Oh, yes. I meet Reed in the 7th scene, in the Molecule Man dimension, and then we wrestle".

[Ken Ashcroft]

Agreed. I shudder whenever anyone suggests they should have brought in a fill in artist to help the publication of this book.

Imagine if Busiek & Ross's Marvels had a fill in artist on issue 4!

Didn't AvX have 3 different artists? and further back the the Infinity Gauntlet had 2. Same will Secret Wars II so it wouldn't be unprecedented.

[jackolover]

Gee, I thought you liked Shooter and he could fix everything.

He did write the first SW after all. And he made Doom basically the winner in that one too. Everyone else was fighting among themselves while Doom was the only one that beat the Beyonder's game. Hickman did the same thing here but on a much, much larger scale. We didn't see any of the cosmics show up in the first Secret Wars either because once again that would have cluttered things up. It was the story of a human that carried the day.

And now you're glad his Beyonder was retconned? Which part of the retcon are you talking about by the way.

Hickman did at least address the problem of the cosmics, when he did that issue of Hank Pym watching the cosmics encounter the Beyonders, but it sent Pym mad, because it was too much for human sensibilities to absorb. That was a good issue to see. Because it explains why you can't explain the unknowable.

[Reality]

Godlike Doom should have shut the Siege Perilous so the Z's and BP couldn't come through. Doom should have known this was going to happen? But like the Beyonders didn't know Doom could use time travel, Doom couldn't know the little tricks Dr Strange had hidden away either, I suppose? There are some really astounding twists to this story, about what is Dooms limitations. Doom has a bodyguard, Galactus, so why is he worried about swarms of Domain residents flocking to Doomstadt? It's like Doom is deliberately letting things slip through his grasp, like a very bad movie actor being a ham. I can almost see Doom reading the script in the background, "Oh, yes. I meet Reed in the 7th scene, in the Molecule Man dimension, and then we wrestle".

God-like. It's well established that God Doom is omnipotent, not omniscient. He can do anything except see everything. Hence the Thors, the Barons and the Future Foundation. He needs minions to function as god- the main proof that he isn't.

He's worried about what's happening because even if he resets everything, the illusion of his godliness is broken. He'd be unable to maintain Battleworld even if the Survivors didn't have a plan to restore the multiverse.

Which would be bad if they didn't have a plan, because his reign is all that holds existence together currently.

[Iron Maiden]

Hickman did at least address the problem of the cosmics, when he did that issue of Hank Pym watching the cosmics encounter the Beyonders, but it sent Pym mad, because it was too much for human sensibilities to absorb. That was a good issue to see. Because it explains why you can't explain the unknowable.

Yes, I recall that and I thought that was a good bit of planning on Hickman's part. That kind of thing, all those cosmic/abstract entities clashing against each other should be quite difficult for mortals to be witness to. With the first Secret Wars, they simply didn't show up and it was all the Beyonder's show and of course now we are to believe that it was a child Beyonder at that. Hickman at least provides the reasons why they don't show up in SW 2015.

Now back with Infinity Gauntlet, all other cosmics complained and protested to the Living Tribunal about Thanos's actions trying to become Eternity, etc. and LT just shrugs it off and says natural selection, play on or something like that. And people talk about Hickman giving Doom a clear path to ultimate power.

[XPac]

Godlike Doom should have shut the Siege Perilous so the Z's and BP couldn't come through. Doom should have known this was going to happen? But like the Beyonders didn't know Doom could use time travel, Doom couldn't know the little tricks Dr Strange had hidden away either, I suppose? There are some really astounding twists to this story, about what is Dooms limitations. Doom has a bodyguard, Galactus, so why is he worried about swarms of Domain residents flocking to Doomstadt? It's like Doom is deliberately letting things slip through his grasp, like a very bad movie actor being a ham. I can almost see Doom reading the script in the background, "Oh, yes. I meet Reed in the 7th scene, in the Molecule Man dimension, and then we wrestle".

The thing Doom is worried about this point is less that the invaders are any sort of threat to him... Hickman flat out said Doom isn't worried about losing the fight. The thing that he's worred about is that he lost control of the situation.

Yeah, he can kill everyone that's invading but ideally Doom doesn't want to rule a world of dead people. He wants to rule them, not kill them. And I think he's starting to realize that might not be possible.

[HUTHAIFA]

Its this little thing that I dont see accepted. There is no one in Doom's league power wise. So Doom snapping Cyclops neck and going Mortal Combat on Thanos is just statement of fact. Its not jobbing. Doom has two weaknesses. He isnt Omniscient and people around him dont Bo Lieve in him. Therefore, he isnt God Doom, he is all powerful Doom.

[Scott Taylor]

Makes sense, the Beyonders weren't omniscient, either. Someone could do exactly to Doom what he did to them.

[MyriVerse]

God-like. It's well established that God Doom is omnipotent, not omniscient. He can do anything except see everything. Hence the Thors, the Barons and the Future Foundation. He needs minions to function as god- the main proof that he isn't.

He's worried about what's happening because even if he resets everything, the illusion of his godliness is broken. He'd be unable to maintain Battleworld even if the Survivors didn't have a plan to restore the multiverse.

Which would be bad if they didn't have a plan, because his reign is all that holds existence together currently.

Not even omnipotent. He might be capable of doing anything, but that's not the same thing.

[Iron Maiden]

I have to go back to that conversation he had with Consort Sue several issues ago. Doom admits to her that he felt he was a poor god and failed to inspire. He felt he should have removed himself and be unseen like the gods of old. I am beginning to wonder how much he's willing to fight to keep Battleworld afloat at some point. Reed being there will make him dig in his heels even against all logic an expedience. Or he might just say to Hell with all of you. We do know when the Earth is restored he comes back tranformed anyway.

[JKtheMac]

Didn't AvX have 3 different artists? and further back the the Infinity Gauntlet had 2. Same will Secret Wars II so it wouldn't be unprecedented.

Sure but when you think of great events do you think of AvX?

I think Marvel are beginning to realise that a good way of producing an evergreen product (A thing they struggle with compared to DC) is to put a solid creative team on it and support them.

[XPac]

I have to go back to that conversation he had with Consort Sue several issues ago. Doom admits to her that he felt he was a poor god and failed to inspire. He felt he should have removed himself and be unseen like the gods of old. I am beginning to wonder how much he's willing to fight to keep Battleworld afloat at some point. Reed being there will make him dig in his heels even against all logic an expedience. Or he might just say to Hell with all of you. We do know when the Earth is restored he comes back tranformed anyway.

Doom does have a habit of allowing himself to lose, so I wouldn't be shocked of Doom simply surrendered godhood provided Reed offered up a good enough alternative.

For what it's worth, Doom seems like he's in a pretty good place personally in Iron Man. However things turned out for him, he seems to be at peace with it. So maybe he does end up getting what he wants.

[JKtheMac]

In general I think Doom is watching the battle with interest, he only intervenes when one of the wild cards, Thanos, enters the fray. Theoretically he can hit the reset button at any point, at least he has been able to previously, before the new elements from the rafts came along.

Even then, I think he feels he has more to gain observing what the raftees are up to than prematurely stopping them.

If my theory is correct it is entirely possible Doom doesn't loose in the last issue anyway. He may be waiting out the endgame. I see two possibilities where Doom doesn't loose, he has a plan in motion and the heroes can't actually stop it or he has a plan that requires an added element and the only people that can provide that are the heroes.

[JKtheMac]

To pick one way this could be working, what if the only way to cause the transition from one multiverse to another is to kill Molecule Man. Doom may not be able to do that in this current setup.

[XPac]

In general I think Doom is watching the battle with interest, he only intervenes when one of the wild cards, Thanos, enters the fray. Theoretically he can hit the reset button at any point, at least he has been able to previously, before the new elements from the rafts came along.

Even then, I think he feels he has more to gain observing what the raftees are up to than prematurely stopping them.

If my theory is correct it is entirely possible Doom doesn't loose in the last issue anyway. He may be waiting out the endgame. I see two possibilities where Doom doesn't loose, he has a plan in motion and the heroes can't actually stop it or he has a plan that requires an added element and the only people that can provide that are the heroes.

I never necessarily thought Doom wanted to rule the world (or the universe or whatever) because it's something he necessarily found enjoyable. I think CONQUERING the world is fun... but the actual job of ruling it after the fact probably is pretty dull.

I think he does what he does because he legitimately feels the world and the unvierse are better off with him ruling. But if in this specific situation a better alternative to him being god of Battle World presents itself, I doubt anyone would be that surprised if he just gave it all up. Doom will probably miss having Reeds family... but I doubt he'll miss the actual job of ruling the universe. It's gotta suck to be frank.