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  1. #31
    Endangered Member Reality's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saffron View Post
    In interviews, Robinson has said that he is writing about a brand of magic only accessible to women. Hence "no boys allowed". I can see that it has a feminist slant, but I'm hesitant to call it feminist, just yet. "Linked to the energy of [...] womankind" is pretty vague, and without an examination of feminist themes, or even defining what the "energy" of womankind is, it's really only paying lip service to feminism. I'll wait and see on this one.

    Anyway, what annoys me is not the concept, it's that, if the goal was to turn Wanda into a feminist character, changing her magic was unnecessary. A woman that draws power from a dark masculine-coded source is already fertile ground for exploring feminist themes. Conflating that with some sort of woman power just confuses things, unless we do away with continuity. I mean, what, is Chthon into girl power, now? And why not just have Wanda be knowledgeable in two different types of magic? The concept of duality is feminist, after all.

    Also, hasn't Doc Strange used chaos magic before? I new that mustache was fake...



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    It's feminist in the sense that her power is not only removed from physical prowess, which is generally a trait attributed to masculinity, but also in that her femininity and femininity as a whole are what empower her. This is opposed to her getting her power from a man, as Captain Marvel does or she used to. The source of her power being male would only be feminist if she discovered her own source of power and stopped using it. Her power now comes from being a woman instead of a link to a man. It's feminist now and wasn't before. Which is interesting, as it makes a statement about feminine power simply through her actions. Now, it would be REALLY feminist if she were able.to reconcile the two and draw equal power from both.

    And duality is not a feminist concept, really. Feminism is about the equality of the sexes and the stupidity of gender roles. Without the concept of duality those stupidly defining roles wouldn't exist. So it's actually kind of counter to feminism, which is more about unity.

    This all, of course, only refers to feminism as a theory. The behavior of the political groups of the same name varies much more wildly and is far less useful for the analysis of fiction.

    And like the quote from the book I took said, it doesn't outright say she isn't using multiple sources of magic.
    Last edited by Reality; 12-12-2015 at 02:58 AM.

  2. #32
    Astonishing Member vitruvian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reality View Post
    It's feminist in the sense that her power is not only removed from physical prowess, which is generally a trait attributed to masculinity, but also in that her femininity and femininity as a whole are what empower her. This is opposed to her getting her power from a man, as Captain Marvel does or she used to. The source of her power being male would only be feminist if she discovered her own source of power and stopped using it. Her power now comes from being a woman instead of a link to a man. It's feminist now and wasn't before. Which is interesting, as it makes a statement about feminine power simply through her actions. Now, it would be REALLY feminist if she were able.to reconcile the two and draw equal power from both.

    And duality is not a feminist concept, really. Feminism is about the equality of the sexes and the stupidity of gender roles. Without the concept of duality those stupidly defining roles wouldn't exist. So it's actually kind of counter to feminism, which is more about unity.

    This all, of course, only refers to feminism as a theory. The behavior of the political groups of the same name varies much more wildly and is far less useful for the analysis of fiction.

    And like the quote from the book I took said, it doesn't outright say she isn't using multiple sources of magic.
    Except that she never says the source of her power has changed, she's just explaining what it is and has always been. Therefore, this is either

    1) a retcon removing the connection to Chthon and his chaos magic (which is definitely chaotic, based on multiple stories including the Chaos Wave in Mighty Avengers),

    2) a retcon saying that Chthon is actually feminine (we already know he's connected to the Earth, albeit in a different way than Gaea, given the name and origins), or

    3) at the very least a clarification that when not being actively corrupted/possessed by the connection to Chthon via Wundagore Mountain, her magic/power has always really drawn on Earthy and feminine sources, which in the MU would indicate a connection to Chthon's 'sister' Elder God, Gaea, which could certainly stand to be better explored. Amongst other things, we could find out whether Gaea is still hanging out with Frigga/Freya/Freyja and Idunn on Asgardia, and why she always seemed distinctly underpowered during all those appearances.

  3. #33
    Spectacular Member BAMF's Avatar
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    I enjoyed it. I think SW and Dr. Strange have the makings of being strong cornerstones for a niche line of magic/supernatural books for Marvel. One thing I haven't seen mentioned in this topic is the early pages. When Wanda looked in the mirror, she saw the appearance of an old woman. And, later on, Agatha cautions Wanda about the toll exerting herself will take. Seems like her magic is slowly causing her to wither away on some spiritual level.

  4. #34
    Amazing Member maximoffimpact's Avatar
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    I found the 1st issue well worth the wait! I also found it to be a juicy read that left me wanting more, something that has been lacking for me in comics to some degree as of late. Enjoyed Robinson's first take on Wanda and loved the evolution of her analytical/witchcraft/spellcasting/sensory skills. What CJ mentioned earlier in this topic regarding Wanda in Avengers Millenium # 1, through much of Wanda's Avengers career, she had a heightened sense of the unseen, which we now know is another aspect of her powers. Power wise, it seems that along with Wanda being a nexus being for magic in the 616 universe, she evolved even further with the combination of her power and spell casting skills. Spell casting skills initially taught by her mentor Agatha Harkness, and further advanced by Wanda herself from the Kurt Busiek Avengers days through her stint with the Uncanny Avengers. She took a more serious approach to her gifts and we are seeing the results of it now. As far as for the origin of her powers, I read it that the basis/roots of her powers go far beyond Chaos magic but do not exclude it. That there was a connection that goes far greater than what is publicly known. For the most part I enjoyed the art in the issue (for the most part) and I really loved the return of Agatha Harkness! Loved the banter between the two of them and Wanda addressing that it wasn't "her" that killed Agatha. I can only hope that there is more details on that later in the series. I love it that Wanda is being proactive as opposed to reactive in this story. Love how she is not running away from who she was, but refusing to be afraid to push herself to be better. Wanda has always been that way to a degree, but with the latter round of events since Busiek's Avengers, she is determined to be more and do more. Also mentioned by another poster, I sense a connection between Wanda's book and Dr. Strange's regarding the breakdown in magic. We will see in the future. I am definitely on board for the rest of the series! I can only hope that at some point, as a tribute, they can get an issue of two as artist from George Perez, Olivier Coipel and Jimmy Cheung! (hint, hint)

    DO I HAVE TO WAIT ANOTHER 30 DAYS???!!! LOL

  5. #35
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    Just got finished reading this, and quite liked it. In particular, the foundation it layed & themes it positions itself to explore, as Wanda's personal journey begins & takes her deeper into the MU's magical realm. Thought the way the dialogue & ongoing story setup were delivered was handled pretty well, as it was intriguing & left me wanting to know more. Though the art style's not typically my thing, I did find it suitably moody & expressive, and rather fitting for the tale being told I guess. All in all, I eagerly anticipate issue #2, to see what happens next & get further clues as to what in Sonneillon's really goin' on. So color me Scarlet... Witch, lol, and thoroughly enchanted. ;D

    Oh, and absolutley LOVED the use of Agatha Harkness's ghost! The exchanges between them were both engaging & entertaining, and after Wanda, plus the overall solo concept itself...





    ... ole Aggie was simply the bestest thing!!

  6. #36
    Endangered Member Reality's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vitruvian View Post
    Except that she never says the source of her power has changed, she's just explaining what it is and has always been. Therefore, this is either

    1) a retcon removing the connection to Chthon and his chaos magic (which is definitely chaotic, based on multiple stories including the Chaos Wave in Mighty Avengers),

    2) a retcon saying that Chthon is actually feminine (we already know he's connected to the Earth, albeit in a different way than Gaea, given the name and origins), or

    3) at the very least a clarification that when not being actively corrupted/possessed by the connection to Chthon via Wundagore Mountain, her magic/power has always really drawn on Earthy and feminine sources, which in the MU would indicate a connection to Chthon's 'sister' Elder God, Gaea, which could certainly stand to be better explored. Amongst other things, we could find out whether Gaea is still hanging out with Frigga/Freya/Freyja and Idunn on Asgardia, and why she always seemed distinctly underpowered during all those appearances.
    Well, she says it appears chaotic. It could still be the same magic, just with added connections to it. Or she could just use multiple sources of magic. And Chton is an Earth-relatred god/demon/whatever, so her connection to the Earth means he doesn't have to be feminine. Hell, when she says "the Earth and womanhood" she could be really saying "Cthon and Gaia". Hopefully it gets clarified in the book or in interviews.

    None of which makes being powered by womanhood a less feminist concept, if that's what you're getting at. It's fairly explicitly that.
    Last edited by Reality; 12-12-2015 at 05:29 PM.

  7. #37
    Fantastic Member Indian Ink's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BAMF View Post
    I enjoyed it. I think SW and Dr. Strange have the makings of being strong cornerstones for a niche line of magic/supernatural books for Marvel. One thing I haven't seen mentioned in this topic is the early pages. When Wanda looked in the mirror, she saw the appearance of an old woman. And, later on, Agatha cautions Wanda about the toll exerting herself will take. Seems like her magic is slowly causing her to wither away on some spiritual level.
    I think it might be that it's the other way around. Remember it started with a dream memory of her very early years in the Avengers. The people on the street look more than a little old fashioned in their dress; indeed so do the Avengers themselves. It could be that the mirror shows her real age of forty to fifty, but she uses glamour to make herself appear to be in her twenties.

  8. #38
    Astonishing Member legion_quest's Avatar
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    Considering the presence of Agatha, as well as the 'witchcraft is only for women' stuff, anyone else expect the main villain to end up being Agatha's son?
    I will raise my throne above the Stars of God

  9. #39
    Extraordinary Member jackolover's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maximoffimpact View Post
    I found the 1st issue well worth the wait! I also found it to be a juicy read that left me wanting more, something that has been lacking for me in comics to some degree as of late. Enjoyed Robinson's first take on Wanda and loved the evolution of her analytical/witchcraft/spellcasting/sensory skills. What CJ mentioned earlier in this topic regarding Wanda in Avengers Millenium # 1, through much of Wanda's Avengers career, she had a heightened sense of the unseen, which we now know is another aspect of her powers. Power wise, it seems that along with Wanda being a nexus being for magic in the 616 universe, she evolved even further with the combination of her power and spell casting skills. Spell casting skills initially taught by her mentor Agatha Harkness, and further advanced by Wanda herself from the Kurt Busiek Avengers days through her stint with the Uncanny Avengers. She took a more serious approach to her gifts and we are seeing the results of it now. As far as for the origin of her powers, I read it that the basis/roots of her powers go far beyond Chaos magic but do not exclude it. That there was a connection that goes far greater than what is publicly known. For the most part I enjoyed the art in the issue (for the most part) and I really loved the return of Agatha Harkness! Loved the banter between the two of them and Wanda addressing that it wasn't "her" that killed Agatha. I can only hope that there is more details on that later in the series. I love it that Wanda is being proactive as opposed to reactive in this story. Love how she is not running away from who she was, but refusing to be afraid to push herself to be better. Wanda has always been that way to a degree, but with the latter round of events since Busiek's Avengers, she is determined to be more and do more. Also mentioned by another poster, I sense a connection between Wanda's book and Dr. Strange's regarding the breakdown in magic. We will see in the future. I am definitely on board for the rest of the series! I can only hope that at some point, as a tribute, they can get an issue of two as artist from George Perez, Olivier Coipel and Jimmy Cheung! (hint, hint)

    DO I HAVE TO WAIT ANOTHER 30 DAYS???!!! LOL
    On the subject of Wandas progress, I do see Agatha Harkness' presence as a sign of Wanda being more mature. Previously, Wanda took the role of the student, then she self-destructed in AD and Children's Crusade. I think this version of Wanda, in discussion with Agatha as an equal, now, is the most confident in herself I've seen. She looks and behaves like Dr Strange in this first issue, in how Wanda holds herself, and the relaxed way she addresses the problem of the stalled magic. I don't see Wanda depending on Magneto or Pietro here, and I see Pietro leaving Wanda alone. This is a far cry from the House Of M Wanda, that both Magneto and Pietro had to protect. This Wanda Maximoff (what is her real family name now?), has arrived.

    On the subject of what's happening here with magic, I think it has to do with the 8th iteration of existence, ANAD. The 6th iteration was heavy in magic, the 7th iteration we just left, the 616, was less magically involved. I think the 8th is going to be devoid of magic, or, substantially different to be independant of Masters or Sorcorer Supreme's. What we seem to be seeing here, and Stephen and Wanda are experiencing, is a fresh status for what they took for granted in the 616. With Iso-8 (a simile to magic wish fulfilment), being so abundant naturally in the 8th iteration, you wouldn't think magic would have the same mystique it did in the 616, so something has to give.
    Last edited by jackolover; 12-13-2015 at 07:33 PM.

  10. #40
    Endangered Member Reality's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by legion_quest View Post
    Considering the presence of Agatha, as well as the 'witchcraft is only for women' stuff, anyone else expect the main villain to end up being Agatha's son?
    That would be a nice person to be the Emerald Warlock we've seen mention of in the solicits.

    Also, I hope the Salem Seven show up at some point.

  11. #41
    Endangered Member Reality's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jackolover View Post
    On the subject of Wandas progress, I do see Agatha Harkness' presence as a sign of Wanda being more mature. Previously, Wanda took the role of the student, then she self-destructed in AD and Children's Crusade. I think this version of Wanda, in discussion with Agatha as an equal, now, is the most confident in herself I've seen. She looks and behaves like Dr Strange in this first issue, in how Wanda holds herself, and the relaxed way she addresses the problem of the stalled magic. I don't see Wanda depending on Magneto or Pietro here, and I see Pietro leaving Wanda alone. This is a far cry from the House Of M Wanda, that both Magneto and Pietro had to protect. This Wanda Maximoff (what is her real family name now?), has arrived.
    Maximoff is her real family name now. Her parents were reset to the originals- Django and Marya Maximoff. Magneto probably won't even show up. I do hope to see Quicksilver, though. Him in this corner would be interesting.

  12. #42
    Astonishing Member vitruvian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reality View Post
    Well, she says it appears chaotic. It could still be the same magic, just with added connections to it.
    Not could be, is. She nowhere says anything to indicate she has changed the type of magic she practices or spells she casts, at all, so it is clear it is the same magic and she is just explaining its true nature.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reality View Post
    Or she could just use multiple sources of magic.

    No textual evidence for that in this particular issue, but it is true that she used to distinguish between the use of her mutant (I guess now pseudo-mutant) 'hex power' and the true magic she started learning from Agatha Harkness.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reality View Post
    And Chton is an Earth-relatred god/demon/whatever, so her connection to the Earth means he doesn't have to be feminine. Hell, when she says "the Earth and womanhood" she could be really saying "Cthon and Gaia". Hopefully it gets clarified in the book or in interviews.

    None of which makes being powered by womanhood a less feminist concept, if that's what you're getting at. It's fairly explicitly that.
    As I noted before, yes, Chthon's name is a reference to the term chthonic, a legacy from ancient Greek that originally meant in, of, or under the Earth, and has become associated more specifically with the underworld (as in the realm of the dead)... so his energies could be part of 'the Earth', sure. It's just odd that the sole deity we know for sure she's connected to is one portrayed as male or masculine, in light of this new emphasis on 'the Earth and womanhood', which seemed to be presented as a pair of connected things rather than two alternative power sources. Perhaps this will mean a connection to Gaea (who has recently been seen running around in embodied form with the Asgardians a lot), but probably too early to tell.

    And if the connection to Chthon and his power is still in continuity and canon, and part of what Wanda terms witchcraft, then it is absolutely not true that only women need apply - because Modred.

  13. #43
    Endangered Member Reality's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vitruvian View Post
    Not could be, is. She nowhere says anything to indicate she has changed the type of magic she practices or spells she casts, at all, so it is clear it is the same magic and she is just explaining its true nature.




    No textual evidence for that in this particular issue, but it is true that she used to distinguish between the use of her mutant (I guess now pseudo-mutant) 'hex power' and the true magic she started learning from Agatha Harkness.



    As I noted before, yes, Chthon's name is a reference to the term chthonic, a legacy from ancient Greek that originally meant in, of, or under the Earth, and has become associated more specifically with the underworld (as in the realm of the dead)... so his energies could be part of 'the Earth', sure. It's just odd that the sole deity we know for sure she's connected to is one portrayed as male or masculine, in light of this new emphasis on 'the Earth and womanhood', which seemed to be presented as a pair of connected things rather than two alternative power sources. Perhaps this will mean a connection to Gaea (who has recently been seen running around in embodied form with the Asgardians a lot), but probably too early to tell.

    And if the connection to Chthon and his power is still in continuity and canon, and part of what Wanda terms witchcraft, then it is absolutely not true that only women need apply - because Modred.
    And we'll be seeing the Emerald Warlock so indeed, it isn't probable that only women can use witchcraft. It just draws its power from the Earth and women. As I have agreed with you already-empowered we'll have to wait and see more specifics. Two panels of narration isn't enough to really know what's going on. I'd say that it IS still chaos magic, just that "chaos" has been retconned to be a misnomer.

    EDIT: I wasn't saying that Cthon and Gaia were not both Earth gods, just that she could be drawing power for witchcraft more from Gaia than Cthon, who is the masculine version of the Earth God. They could be twins, as it were, which would be a nice fit for Scarlet Witch's mythos. Duality would be a good theme to explore with her, and conjoining her prior connection to Cthon to Gaia would work well, IMHO. What is clear is that there has been a retcon- it's just hard to tell exactly what it is as of yet.
    Last edited by Reality; 12-13-2015 at 07:48 PM.

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Panfoot View Post
    This is what the Doctor Strange book should have been.
    Agreed 100%.

    I was very pleasantly suprised by this book and will continue to read it moving forward.

  15. #45
    Wanda & Ribrianne~4~Life! CJStriker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr MajestiK View Post
    Agreed 100%.

    I was very pleasantly suprised by this book and will continue to read it moving forward.
    Great to Hear that Mr. MajestiK, Glad to here you are onboard my friend and welcome back to the Scarlet Witch Conversation!
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