The difference between the Pre Crisis Jason Todd and Post Crisis Todd?

[tib2d2]

Jason Todd first appeared as Robin in 1983, then his introduction was retold post-Crisis.

Was there a big difference in the personality of Todd pre-crisis compared to post?

[LoneNecromancer]

Yeah. Pre-Crisis Jason was more of a Dick Grayson clone in origin and his mannerisms, but still had some fairly unique stories- his relationship with Nocturna for one, and of course he was in Alan Moore's For The Man Who Had Everything.

Post-Crisis Jason introduced a lot of what we know of him today- stealing the tires off the Batmobile, the "rebel" Robin who was more defiant of Batman's orders, who might've pushed Felipe Garzonas to his death. Also had a pretty good showing in The Cult.

[K. Jones]

Actually ...

Jason Todd's origins were retconned as a result of LEGENDS, not CRISIS. Though it was part of the Crisis Effect. But it was really the Miller Effect.

Jason was virtually unchanged through CRISIS. In 1983 Jason had gone from red-headed circus orphan whose parents had been killed by Killer Croc, to adopted by Bruce Wayne, to dying his hair black and pretending to be Robin to distract Joker, to getting Dick's blessing to actually be Robin. Dick became Nightwing as a result of Deathstroke, Terra and the Judas Contract.

So at the end of that, Crisis happens in the middle of a big Nocturna storyline. Jason had weird feelings for Nocturna because she tried to adopt him out from under Bruce Wayne for some reason. And when Crisis ends? The followup to that story is still happening. Catwoman, who helped out in the Nocturna situation, is sort of forming a dynamic trio with Batman and Jason. This is still 1985.

It's not until 1987, just after Miller's Dark Knight mini, that DC decides to have Miller retcon Batman's origin by doing "Year One". Year One is immediately followed by Year Two in Detective, and a four-part story that retcons Jason Todd's origins from Grayson clone to "bad kid who grew up on Crime Alley and jacks Batman's tires". This was done by Max Allan Collins, and reconciled the fact that Grayson's change to Nightwing basically had nothing to do with the Batman titles by adding a bit of "Dick rebelling" angle.

Of course, his origin might be changed, but Jason has still been Robin for the last five years. Collins then goes about telling normal Batman and Robin stories. He has a rough upbringing now so he's not a Grayson clone, but Jason's still not a total punk jerk.

Half a year later, getting toward 1988, Jim Starlin comes into play. A friend of Miller, who REALLY liked that "Dead Robin" display case in Dark Knight Returns, he wanted Robin to die so Batman would be a brooding loner again (like he hadn't been since 1939, before a bunch of these writers were even born, and ironically contrary to what Miller did in DKR, creating a new Robin). Ironically Starlin's "The Cult" is like the best story featuring the Jason Todd Robin.

So Starlin can't just kill him off, he sets about making Jason into a total a-hole first, so that fans will WANT Jason to be killed off and call the 1-800 number. Blatant, admitted character assassination. In the most literal sense!

I get why most people divide things into Pre- and Post-Crisis, but it has little to do with the specific case of Jason Todd.

[riddler123]

Are there any collections with the pre crisis Jason?
I've read the odd story (in a collection) such as All my enemies against me. But its be nice to have some pre crisis Jason stories like the post crisis collection: Second chances.

[Zaresh]

Actually ...

Jason Todd's origins were retconned as a result of LEGENDS, not CRISIS. Though it was part of the Crisis Effect. But it was really the Miller Effect.

Jason was virtually unchanged through CRISIS. In 1983 Jason had gone from red-headed circus orphan whose parents had been killed by Killer Croc, to adopted by Bruce Wayne, to dying his hair black and pretending to be Robin to distract Joker, to getting Dick's blessing to actually be Robin. Dick became Nightwing as a result of Deathstroke, Terra and the Judas Contract.

So at the end of that, Crisis happens in the middle of a big Nocturna storyline. Jason had weird feelings for Nocturna because she tried to adopt him out from under Bruce Wayne for some reason. And when Crisis ends? The followup to that story is still happening. Catwoman, who helped out in the Nocturna situation, is sort of forming a dynamic trio with Batman and Jason. This is still 1985.

It's not until 1987, just after Miller's Dark Knight mini, that DC decides to have Miller retcon Batman's origin by doing "Year One". Year One is immediately followed by Year Two in Detective, and a four-part story that retcons Jason Todd's origins from Grayson clone to "bad kid who grew up on Crime Alley and jacks Batman's tires". This was done by Max Allan Collins, and reconciled the fact that Grayson's change to Nightwing basically had nothing to do with the Batman titles by adding a bit of "Dick rebelling" angle.

Of course, his origin might be changed, but Jason has still been Robin for the last five years. Collins then goes about telling normal Batman and Robin stories. He has a rough upbringing now so he's not a Grayson clone, but Jason's still not a total punk jerk.

Half a year later, getting toward 1988, Jim Starlin comes into play. A friend of Miller, who REALLY liked that "Dead Robin" display case in Dark Knight Returns, he wanted Robin to die so Batman would be a brooding loner again (like he hadn't been since 1939, before a bunch of these writers were even born, and ironically contrary to what Miller did in DKR, creating a new Robin). Ironically Starlin's "The Cult" is like the best story featuring the Jason Todd Robin.

So Starlin can't just kill him off, he sets about making Jason into a total a-hole first, so that fans will WANT Jason to be killed off and call the 1-800 number. Blatant, admitted character assassination. In the most literal sense!

I get why most people divide things into Pre- and Post-Crisis, but it has little to do with the specific case of Jason Todd.

This is the best summary I've read to this date. I didn't even know a few bits.

Also, I think that pre-Crisis Jason was pretty bold too. He was more naïve and sort of carefree (still, he was very responsible), but he still was bold as hell, outspoken and, well, a teenager. Much like his post-Crisis incarnation. And, because the transition was very slow-paced, plenty of that softness carried to his new portrayal for a while. Jason wasn't "a jerk" until very late in the game, I think. The Cult was published a few months before A Death in the Family, and you can't call him a jerk there. You can't call him a jerk in the first issue of A Death in the Family either. I wonder if you can call him a jerk at all, in his actual time as Robin (save for not giving a sh*t if that rapist fell by himself or he make him fall. But then you have to understand that Jason was reacting at what he has just seen earlier in that story). He beat tugs and villains to a pulp, but so did Bruce, and Dick. He was provoking his enemies, but as far as I know, that's a given for the Robin role in the dynamic.

I don't know, maybe I'm wrong, because I haven't read the whole bunch of issues. But for what I've managed to read, this is how it was.

Are there any collections with the pre crisis Jason?
I've read the odd story (in a collection) such as All my enemies against me. But its be nice to have some pre crisis Jason stories like the post crisis collection: Second chances.

I'm non-british European, but I think at least the first half has been collected over there?
https://www.amazon.es/Tales-Batman-G.../dp/140127255X
Edit: more. I suck at this stuff, but I think this covers all pre-COIE. I hope someone can actually tell you what actually covers Jason Todd's stories.
https://www.amazon.es/Tales-Batman-D...03E3X31Z309JWC
https://www.amazon.es/Tales-Batman-C...8VDTKKNF47QSDH

[Restingvoice]

This is the best summary I've read to this date. I didn't even know a few bits.

Also, I think that pre-Crisis Jason was pretty bold too. He was more naïve and sort of carefree (still, he was very responsible), but he still was bold as hell, outspoken and, well, a teenager. Much like his post-Crisis incarnation. And, because the transition was very slow-paced, plenty of that softness carried to his new portrayal for a while. Jason wasn't "a jerk" until very late in the game, I think. The Cult was published a few months before A Death in the Family, and you can't call him a jerk there. You can't call him a jerk in the first issue of A Death in the Family either. I wonder if you can call him a jerk at all, in his actual time as Robin (save for not giving a sh*t if that rapist fell by himself or he make him fall. But then you have to understand that Jason was reacting at what he has just seen earlier in that story). He beat tugs and villains to a pulp, but so did Bruce, and Dick. He was provoking his enemies, but as far as I know, that's a given for the Robin role in the dynamic.

I don't know, maybe I'm wrong, because I haven't read the whole bunch of issues. But for what I've managed to read, this is how it was.



I'm non-british European, but I think at least the first half has been collected over there?
https://www.amazon.es/Tales-Batman-G.../dp/140127255X
Edit: more. I suck at this stuff, but I think this covers all pre-COIE. I hope someone can actually tell you what actually covers Jason Todd's stories.
https://www.amazon.es/Tales-Batman-D...03E3X31Z309JWC
https://www.amazon.es/Tales-Batman-C...8VDTKKNF47QSDH

Oh I usually google the list of issues and check the description one by one but I'm feeling particularly lazy today

[Aahz]

Was there a big difference in the personality of Todd pre-crisis compared to post?

The big problem here is that post Crisis Jason never really was very inconsistently written, and got very little focus in the comics, so it is pretty hard to tell what his personality really was.

[riddler123]

I'm non-british European, but I think at least the first half has been collected over there?
https://www.amazon.es/Tales-Batman-G.../dp/140127255X
Edit: more. I suck at this stuff, but I think this covers all pre-COIE. I hope someone can actually tell you what actually covers Jason Todd's stories.
https://www.amazon.es/Tales-Batman-D...03E3X31Z309JWC
https://www.amazon.es/Tales-Batman-C...8VDTKKNF47QSDH

Thank you it seems vol 3 is the one that introduces Jason. But that is all that is available.

[Zaresh]

Thank you it seems vol 3 is the one that introduces Jason. But that is all that is available.

Ah, I knew I remembered reading Tec 526 at least.
Good to hear if it helped.
I think you could check digital format too, just in case.

[SixSpeedSamurai]

A crowbar?

[Jim Kelly]

In the original continuing story that lasted for several months (maybe years), Bruce took Jason in, but he didn't want him to be Robin. Jason went out on his own one time to be Robin and Batman got very angry with him for that. He didn't feel Jason could fill that role. And as I recall, Dick was still Robin at that point (or at least not Nightwing yet). Eventually, Jason proved himself to Bruce and Dick gave Jason his Robin costume, so Batman accepted Jason as the new Robin.

I think this shows that pre-Year One Bruce was much more responsible and put the safety of Jason first. He was a father to Jason, he didn't want to endanger his life. It was only because Jason was determined to become Robin and because Dick thought he should take on the role that Bruce changed his mind.

[Zaresh]

In the original continuing story that lasted for several months (maybe years), Bruce took Jason in, but he didn't want him to be Robin. Jason went out on his own one time to be Robin and Batman got very angry with him for that. He didn't feel Jason could fill that role. And as I recall, Dick was still Robin at that point (or at least not Nightwing yet). Eventually, Jason proved himself to Bruce and Dick gave Jason his Robin costume, so Batman accepted Jason as the new Robin.

I think this shows that pre-Year One Bruce was much more responsible and put the safety of Jason first. He was a father to Jason, he didn't want to endanger his life. It was only because Jason was determined to become Robin and because Dick thought he should take on the role that Bruce changed his mind.

Dick gave Jason Robin at some point when Jason was already wondering how own caped ID. It was a two-issues story that did for a nice reading about the weight of legacy, responsibility and had Jason pulling some nice trick to the villain of the story in the end. I think it was around the same time Dick was coming with his Nightwing within his Teen Titans. It's funny how much closer Dick was to pre-COIE Jason.

[Dazai_Osamu]

Pre-COIE Jason was a lot like Dick and he was angry for a little while when his parents (Trina and Joseph Todd) were killed by Croc but that was normal and he could overcome it in his origin story. He was bold but a nice guy all around. Post-CRISIS, he was bold and brazen but nice until Jim Starlin, where Jason discovered his dad was probably killed by Two Face and Bruce knew and didn't tell him from that point on he became more reckless and violent, and the bad Robin is 'created'.

[Aahz]

Post-CRISIS, he was bold and brazen but nice until Jim Starlin, where Jason discovered his dad was probably killed by Two Face and Bruce knew and didn't tell him from that point on he became more reckless and violent, and the bad Robin is 'created'.

That's not really how it happend.
The Two face thing was actually the second part of Jason new Origin story (Batman #410 and #411), and written by his post crisis creator Max Allen Collins. And that had Jason finally over come his anger in the end. Collins was only on the book for one additional issue, then they had one issue by a filler writer and with #414 Starlin took over.
Jason would act pretty normal for a Robin through the first half of Starlin's run ("Batman:The Cult"), the sudden change came with Batman #422 when Jason suddenly brutally beat up a pimp.
In Batman #423 Jason didn't appear, #424+#425 was Diplomat's Son and and #426 is already Death in the Family.

Btw. one should also mention that Starlin is not exactly a normal Batman run, a lot of the stories revolved around villains where Batman's methods didn't work for various reasons, and already Stralin's first issue had beating Batman brutally beating up a suspect, that was in the end nothing to do with the murder Batman was investigating.

[Zaresh]

That's not really how it happend.
The Two face thing was actually the second part of Jason new Origin story (Batman #410 and #411), and written by his post crisis creator Max Allen Collins. And that had Jason finally over come his anger in the end. Collins was only on the book for one additional issue, then they had one issue by a filler writer and with #414 Starlin took over.
Jason would act pretty normal for a Robin through the first half of Starlin's run ("Batman:The Cult"), the sudden change came with Batman #422 when Jason suddenly brutally beat up a pimp.
In Batman #423 Jason didn't appear, #424+#425 was Diplomat's Son and and #426 is already Death in the Family.

Btw. one should also mention that Starlin is not exactly a normal Batman run, a lot of the stories revolved around villains where Batman's methods didn't work for various reasons, and already Stralin's first issue had beating Batman brutally beating up a suspect, that was in the end nothing to do with the murder Batman was investigating.

This is how I remember it being. Glad to know I wasn't misremembering things again XD.