Bleeding Cool keeps posting rumors that Old 52 characters are supposed to pop up in 2015

[Dispenser Of Truth]

Batman lost them

With Batman it isn't so much an issue; Superman's got the bright primary color breaking up the sea of relatively dull blue, while with Batman it's just black on grey, doesn't make nearly as much of a difference.

[Prime]

With Batman it isn't so much an issue; Superman's got the bright primary color breaking up the sea of relatively dull blue, while with Batman it's just black on grey, doesn't make nearly as much of a difference.

Red trunks do not define Superman. At least to me they don't. Man, people will complain about petty things.

[Dispenser Of Truth]

Red trunks do not define Superman. At least to me they don't. Man, people will complain about petty things.

I wasn't saying they defined him. Like I said before, they're not even remotely one of the most important features of his costume. I just noted their practical significance from a design perspective.

[Blacksun]

Mmmmm.
You will have to be more specific than "back to basics", I'm afraid. What are these basics one must go back to? Flies around and save people? Fights for the little man and slaps around wife beaters?
Same for "develop the character"......develop him towards what?
Bevause if its just developing in general, well.....the New 52 guy is developped. You just don't like what he has been developped to be.

Back to Basics is his origin. Like Smallville and batman begins. Superman is sent in a rocket to Earth. check
he is raised by a lovely couple that live in a farm on Kansas. check.
He goes to the big city try his life as journalist. check.
Like I said his back to basics worked in new 52, even too much with morrison going back golden age roots. But they didn't gave continuity to it.
They developped pretty badly, he is a mess.

Johns Superman never brooded. He was just stoic. There's a difference. Granted stoic can get boring, but they're still not the same thing. And Soule's Superman is neither brooding nor stoic.

JL probably is more stoic, but he brooded. Soule brood too.

Nobody answered about the scan, so I will asume is unchained. There is a good Superman, balanced, that care for people, is lighter. *nobody dies today* just like that episode of doctor who

[Auguste Dupin]

Back to Basics is his origin. Like Smallville and batman begins. Superman is sent in a rocket to Earth. check
he is raised by a lovely couple that live in a farm on Kansas. check.
He goes to the big city try his life as journalist. check.
Like I said his back to basics worked in new 52, even too much with morrison going back golden age roots. But they didn't gave continuity to it.
They developped pretty badly, he is a mess.

I hear you....kinda, but again, what should they have done differently, concretely?

[Kuwagaton]

Red trunks do not define Superman. At least to me they don't. Man, people will complain about petty things.

Yeah, while I do like the old suit, I don't care if you put him in a red fur coat with blue yoga pants as long as you write him well.

[misslane]

Wanna see some back to basics? That's back to basics right here. Superman is Clark Kent and nobody knows.

Some know. I wish Lois would know. That's actually an innovation of other incarnations and something George Perez was going to do that I thought was worth exploring. It's one of the reasons I can honestly say that the spirit of the New 52 is one that I embrace, but I'm disappointed in some of the execution. If New 52 Superman comes in touch with other universes or versions of himself, I wonder what he'd think about Lois being in the know considering his determination to keep her in the dark for her safety.

Morrison's Superman was too busy being awesome to mope about his loneliness. Same for Greg Pak. Hell, even Soule's isn't brooding. More like overly cautious.

I think Morrison, Pak, and Soule have all had their moments of brooding. I'm personally not against a measure of brooding, crying, or other emotions as long as they're worked through, showing resilience. Just having those moments, though, isn't bad in and of itself. And I hope it goes without saying that the amount of judgment and acceptance we level against any version of Superman for spending some time in the emotional doldrums, so to speak, should be commensurate with the severity of what he's going through and perhaps even age. So if other Superman were to meet because of this Crisis homage, then my hope is they wouldn't be too hard on each other for their emotional reactions.

Another misconception is that Superman wasn't mopey before the New 52.

For the record, I do think he was mopey. I just don't think that was the predominant trait that came through when I read those stories, and there were some periods or writers who would do more or less of it. It often wouldn't even register for me that I should be annoyed with his pensiveness or sadness, because the stories would provide a valid reason for his feelings. My criticism would then be that it would be better for writers to embrace greater variety and understand that there can be too much of a good thing. I like deep, thought-provoking stories that challenge Superman, but if run after run or arc after arc hits the same notes, it can become monotonous and annoying. I feel the same way about the New 52's current penchant for personality changes (body swaps, mind control, etc.) and heroes fighting each other. That's why Pak's little Baka adventure felt like such a breath of fresh air. Silver Age Superman would probably find modern versions of himself boring and their lives restrictive given how much his stories were dynamic and resettable.

"I have been a pariah my entire life".
That's from Geoff Johns run. The AC one from before New 52. The Legion of Superheroes arc, where Johns explained to us how poor lonely Clark has been rejected by every kid in Smallville during his entire childhood. Ho, poor, lonely Superman indeed. Compared to that guy, any incarnation on the New 52 not written by Johns are completely carefree and laidback.

The New 52 has also expanded this type of rejection by broadening it to society at large. I think it's interesting to explore public mistrust, because I believe that's a natural response to superpowered aliens, but it's getting tiresome for me at this point.

[Auguste Dupin]

Some know. I wish Lois would know. That's actually an innovation of other incarnations and something George Perez was going to do that I thought was worth exploring. It's one of the reasons I can honestly say that the spirit of the New 52 is one that I embrace, but I'm disappointed in some of the execution. If New 52 Superman comes in touch with other universes or versions of himself, I wonder what he'd think about Lois being in the know considering his determination to keep her in the dark for her safety.



I think Morrison, Pak, and Soule have all had their moments of brooding. I'm personally not against a measure of brooding, crying, or other emotions as long as they're worked through, showing resilience. Just having those moments, though, isn't bad in and of itself. And I hope it goes without saying that the amount of judgment and acceptance we level against any version of Superman for spending some time in the emotional doldrums, so to speak, should be commensurate with the severity of what he's going through and perhaps even age.



For the record, I do think he was mopey. I just don't think that was the predominant trait that came through when I read those stories, and there were some periods or writers who would do more or less of it. It often wouldn't even register for me that I should be annoyed with his pensiveness or sadness, because the stories would provide a valid reason for his feelings. My criticism would then be that it would be better for writers to embrace greater variety and understand that there can be too much of a good thing. I like deep, thought-provoking stories that challenge Superman, but if run after run or arc after arc hits the same notes, it can become monotonous and annoying. I feel the same way about the New 52's current penchant for personality changes (body swaps, mind control, etc.) and heroes fighting each other. That's why Pak's little Baka adventure felt like such a breath of fresh air.



The New 52 has also expanded this type of rejection by broadening it to society at large. I think it's interesting to explore public mistrust, because I believe that's a natural response to superpowered aliens, but it's getting tiresome for me at this point.

-Not when he was first created they didn't. The character has worked relatively fine (at least as fine as he did after that) for about 50 years without anyone but other heroes knowing who he was. That's the basics, regardless of wether or not it's a good thing.

-There's a different about having moments of self doubts (and frankly, Morrison's has, what, 2 panels in 18 issues?), and being brooding. None of the versions I named were brooding.

-I don't find mopeyness to be the predominent trait of the versions I quoted, less than Johns' previous take at the very least. And what I notice is that the most heavy on the "mopey" or "lonely" side, amusingly, are the one who sounded the most like the old version (I'm thinking of Perez, or Johns on JL, Snyder in a sense).

-Frankly, Lobdell has been the only one who I recall making such a big theme of Superman being rejected (possibly Johns-again-, but I'm not too sure, haven't checked JL in a while now).
As far as I'm concerned, it's less about people rejecting Superman and more about how he reacts to it. And, again, the interpretations I named dealt with it the right way in my opinion: sticking to their guns and pressing on.

[misslane]

-Not when he was first created they didn't. The character has worked relatively fine (at least as fine as he did after that) for about 50 years without anyone but other heroes knowing who he was. That's the basics, regardless of wether or not it's a good thing.

-There's a different about having moments of self doubts (and frankly, Morrison's has, what, 2 panels in 18 issues?), and being brooding. None of the versions I named were brooding.

-I don't find mopeyness to be the predominent trait of the versions I quoted, less than Johns' previous take at the very least. And what I notice is that the most heavy on the "mopey" or "lonely" side, amusingly, are the one who sounded the most like the old version (I'm thinking of Perez, or Johns on JL, Snyder in a sense).

-Frankly, Lobdell has been the only one who I recall making such a big theme of Superman being rejected (possibly Johns-again-, but I'm not too sure, haven't checked JL in a while now).
As far as I'm concerned, it's less about people rejecting Superman and more about how he reacts to it. And, again, the interpretations I named dealt with it the right way in my opinion: sticking to their guns and pressing on.

This is interesting to discuss, but perhaps it's not focused enough on the prospect of different iterations of Superman meeting each other or elements of one age returning to the present continuity. To stick to that spin on the matter, I'd say that I hope any meet up of different Supermen would highlight how keeping the secret from beloved friends is not ideal. I'd hope that mopeyness and brooding still factor into stories, but not ad nauseum. I will say that because Johns and Perez were among those who provided some of the initial portrayals of New 52 Superman, it's somewhat understandable why some might perceive him as being mopey too. The brooding over loneliness was center stage in Superman and Wonder Woman's first kiss under Johns', so that, I believe, added to the sense that New 52 Superman feels lonely in a way that weighs on him as a result of the secrets he must keep and his godlike status. Regarding the reaction to rejection, are there early versions of the character who experienced anything like that from the public? Or, in other words, which Superman might be best to traipse into New 52 Superman's life to advise him and thus hit on that story thread in the current continuity?

[Auguste Dupin]

This is interesting to discuss, but perhaps it's not focused enough on the prospect of different iterations of Superman meeting each other or elements of one age returning to the present continuity. To stick to that spin on the matter, I'd say that I hope any meet up of different Supermen would highlight how keeping the secret from beloved friends is not ideal. I'd hope that mopeyness and brooding still factor into stories, but not ad nauseum. I will say that because Johns and Perez were among those who provided some of the initial portrayals of New 52 Superman, it's somewhat understandable why some might perceive him as being mopey too. The brooding over loneliness was center stage in Superman and Wonder Woman's first kiss under Johns', so that, I believe, added to the sense that New 52 Superman feels lonely in a way that weighs on him as a result of the secrets he must keep and his godlike status. Regarding the reaction to rejection, are there early versions of the character who experienced anything like that from the public? Or, in other words, which Superman might be best to traipse into New 52 Superman's life to advise him and thus hit on that story thread in the current continuity?

Yeah, but that's like, Johns. On Justice League. The guy has pretty much written pretty much anyone out of character with how they appear in their own solo book, even when he's the one writing said solo book.
So that's not on the New 52. That's on Johns.
Plus, as I mentionned, Superman being a lonely figure is a recurring theme when Johns writes him. His AC run, Justice League, apparently the incomming Superman run....That's just his take on the character, regardless of continuity.
As for the reactions to rejection, well.....appart from the occasional "evil Superman" story, there's the early Golden Age, where he was an outlaw, and he didn't care at all. But it was a different time.

[Cmbmool]

Morrison Superman is smiling. Greg Pak Superman is smiling. Hell, even Soule Superman is smiling (a bit less perhaps, but still smiling).
That leaves who, Lobdell (hell, I'm not even sure he's not smiling)? Johns on Justice League? Perez and Jurgens don't count, they were writing the old Superman in the new suit.
Broody and gritty new 52 Superman is myth, an imaginary boogeyman you guys at talking about late at night to scare yourselves.

Morrison had a "devil May care attitude" with his Superman. Pak's version is almost similar to his other Marvel work and Soule's version more needy considering the relationship with Wonder Woman.


I never did view Jergens Superman and Johns Suoerman felt more brooding than Batman, especially when written in the new 52.

[Ascended]

Johns Suoerman felt more brooding than Batman.

Johns doesnt really seem to get the character. Superman's the guy who suffers tremendous losses, the sort of thing that would emotionally/mentally cripple anyone else, and not only keeps going, but doesnt let it consume him. Yes, he's isolated and alone. He's the lonely god. And hes okay with that, he's made his peace with that and it doesnt bother him. His life has it drawbacks but he absolutely loves being him.

Johns.....not sure how he thinks Superman should work but its certainly not that. Johns has always written Superman as being bowed by the weight he carries. He misses the point that the weight of the world on his shoulders is what *makes* Superman strong.

[andersonh1]

Red trunks do not define Superman. At least to me they don't. Man, people will complain about petty things.

I don't consider it petty that DC changed the look of Superman's costume after 73 years. The new one looks unbalanced. And what does that belt even do, now that it's not holding up his pants like the old version? The belt is an admission that something needs to break up the blue, but it's not a patch on the old solution.

[Kid A]

I never understood the whole idea that you need the red trunks to break up the blue; The Flash's costume looks just fine.

[DochaDocha]

I never understood the whole idea that you need the red trunks to break up the blue; The Flash's costume looks just fine.

Word. I think it's more people are used to seeing the red trunks' "breaking up the blue," and so once it's gone the absence is noticeable.