Bleeding Cool keeps posting rumors that Old 52 characters are supposed to pop up in 2015

[Francisco]

So basically you're subscribing to the philosophy that just because something is old, it can't be better than what's new and should be ignored in favor of the new?

Not old... Just something that outlived its purpose (post-crisis Superman Byrne-Man truncks out of his pants-Man)

[Pharozonk]

Not old... Just something that outlived its purpose (post-crisis Superman Byrne-Man truncks out of his pants-Man)

The trunks are an aesthetic element used to balance the colors of the costume, not make the character look childish. It's probably the most color balanced superhero costume ever created, but the removal of it makes the costume too blue and out of balance.

[Sacred Knight]

How has the New 52 Superman proven to be a ton better than what he was as recently as five years ago? I get that some might find the character subjectively more appealing but the same could be said about Post-Crisis Superman.

More than anything else? A solid, one stop origin. Which is not subjective but fact. That may not be important for some fans which is cool, but it means a lot to me. I absolutely loathed not even knowing Superman's past anymore in the pre-Flashpoint stories. He's not the Joker, I want to know his journey.

Everything else though is indeed subjective, I won't claim otherwise there. I'm not shy from admitting I like a mentally tough Superman with a hint of attitude over one who bursts into tears at the drop of a hat.

The trunks are an aesthetic element used to balance the colors of the costume, not make the character look childish. It's probably the most color balanced superhero costume ever created, but the removal of it makes the costume too blue and out of balance.

And as the new costumes prove, there are other ways to balance the color. None of the new costumes are out of balance. New 52, Earth 2, and Smallville all incorporate more red in different areas that keep them from looking like a blue onesie. Doesn't mean some people can't and do still just plainly like the trunks there better, but I don't see any basis anymore to make the claim that they're needed for balance. And I used to be in that boat strongly.

[Francisco]

The new costume depending of whom draws it looks fantastic without the red trucks. And so those the MOS version.

[misslane]

You just summed up the argument and won the whole thing. That right there is why pre-52 Superman was an abject failure.

So, according to you, something is a failure based on one storyline that took place in a very small fraction of a 25+ year run?

Of course you wouldnt. Perhaps you should look at some reviews.

Reviews are subjective, and I specifically qualified my statement to indicate that I consider subjective opinions as not having much weight. If you'll read later in this post, though, you'll see that even the reviews don't tell the story you seem to think they do.

Everyone universally hated Grounded, and New Krypton didnt get much love either. This was just the tail end of a long downward spiral in the quality and popularity of Superman comics too (the comics, not the character itself) which lasted a decade.

We're talking about a 25+ year history for Post-Crisis Superman versus 3 years of the New 52. I didn't like those last few years of Post-Crisis much either, but they don't define the entire era. The decade before it ended, there were still good patches among the bad ones, or one run that was good getting simultaneously published with a bad one.

To be clear, I understand that Sacred Knight's post was in response to someone (Cmbmool) who was angling for the New 52's replacement. I don't want to see a replacement either, but only because that just seems sloppy, and I actually do like the spirit of the reboot; I want to experience a new take on the characters I love because I like reading stories about them, not because I hated what came before. The spirit of Cmbmool's post and the reaction against the Post-Crisis returning in any way, however, suggests there's some black and white thinking going on that I don't agree with: I neither want everything Post-Crisis to return or think it was always awesome, nor do I want the New 52 to stay exactly as it is since I think it has flaws of its own. I also don't think that any meeting between New 52 Superman and Post-Crisis Superman, which we sort of saw in the first run of Pak's Batman/Superman, needs to take sides as to which one is best; they both have their pros and cons, in my eyes.

So, what I'm trying to say is that I'm not comparing the Grounded era to Morrison's Action Comics run. Rather, I'm making a more general comparison since Sacred Knight's original claim was that it was indisputable Superman (via the New 52) was made a lot better (or as I've chosen to interpret it: he's better off now than he was in the previous era). I'm taking this point of view because surely this possible impending "Crisis," which has inspired us to discuss what elements of the Post-Crisis Superman could return or simply what a meeting between New 52 and Post-Crisis Superman would be like, doesn't have to mean that the precise Post-Crisis elements or portrayal of Superman must be in line with how we last saw him in Grounded. Plus, keep in mind that Grounded ended not only with the reveal that a crystal worsened Superman's mood, but also with Superman reinvigorated. If Post-Crisis elements or Post-Crisis Superman do get revisited somehow, I don't see how that has to be a wholly negative thing. As I see it, there were some good things about both the era and the protagonist that can be played with.

The New52 Superman has seen much better reviews. Morrison's run was hailed as a success (not perfect, but still a success) and Pak's run seems to be immensely popular with reviewers too. Lobdell was certainly a weak spot but even he got more love than Grounded and WoNK. In fact, the runs that *feel* too similar to the old continuity Superman (such as Jurgens and Perez) are the ones that dont seem popular.

Not really. Go to comicbookroundup and the average reviews aren't that different. The average review score for New 52 Action Comics is 7.6 while the average review for Post-Crisis Action Comics was 7.4. The average review of New 52 Superman comics is 6.1, while Post-Crisis Superman reviews average a 6.8. In terms of events, World of New Krypton's average is 7.4, while Doomed #1 is at 7.2. Overall, I can't say there's hard evidence, again, other than subjective preference, to suggest that there's been a lot of improvement.

Sales have settled back down to roughly the same place they were at, true. But it took quite a while to get there; Action and Superman were both Top 20 for quite some time and only got kicked down the ranks due to Marvel's massively hyped and marketed A/X mega-Event and the "NOW" campaign that followed. And sales are not a full indicator of success either. Many of the highest quality, most raved about books never sell that well. Dial H, Swamp Thing, Animal Man, Red Lanterns, Invincible, Saga, Captain Marvel....none of these books set the sales rankings on fire but each one of them is regarded as high quality "must-read" titles.

So? Sales for the Post-Crisis era started out high as well, and it too eventually settled down over decades.

[misslane]

More than anything else? A solid, one stop origin. Which is not subjective but fact. That may not be important for some fans which is cool, but it means a lot to me. I absolutely loathed not even knowing Superman's past anymore in the pre-Flashpoint stories. He's not the Joker, I want to know his journey.

Well, I don't think the New 52 origin is as solid as you believe it is. I want to know Superman's journey, too. At this point, I'm still not clear on Superman's history with Doomsday and a whole host of important things that happened during the five year gap that have yet to be explained. We never got to see Lois Lane's famous first interview with Superman or Clark Kent's first day at the Daily Planet. Lana's history with Clark already contradicts itself: Fisch's backups showed Clark leaving Smallville first while Pak chose to show Lana leaving first. We only got to see the beginning of Superman's relationship with the Justice League before a five year flashforward we're just supposed to fill in the blanks ourselves to figure out how those key relationships and team dynamics evolved. I don't see New 52 Superman's journey with the same clarity you possess. It's just not there for me.

I'm not shy from admitting I like a mentally tough Superman with a hint of attitude over one who bursts into tears at the drop of a hat.

That's unreasonable hyperbole (Post-Crisis crying) and understatement (New 52 only has a hint of attitude). Post-Crisis Superman wouldn't cry at the littlest thing. He was challenged with very weighty things, and even then he wouldn't always burst into tears. You shouldn't have to resort to strawmen arguments like this to make your point.

[Cmbmool]

pretty fun that it was Didio that wrecked DCU old universe, it's not like the universe screw up himself alone. Lee and didio did it. Only JL and Batman sell more than pre new 52.
pre new 52 there was batgirl, red robin, a good supergirl. there was pretty of quality books. It's not like 52 is swimming on quality.

There was also a better Superman that was married to Lois. Lane and was "happy." Not like that mattered anymore.

[Sacred Knight]

That's BS hyperbole (Post-Crisis crying) and understatement (New 52 only has a hint of attitude). Post-Crisis Superman wouldn't cry at the littlest thing. He was challenged with very weighty things, and even then he wouldn't always burst into tears. You shouldn't have to resort to strawmen arguments like this to make your point.

There you go freaking out again over nothing. I know its hyperbole, I don't need you explaining it to me. It took you days to stop complaining over the Smallville joke, I hope this doesn't get you in a wad for another 2 days straight.

Well, I don't think the New 52 origin is as solid as you believe it is. I want to know Superman's journey, too. At this point, I'm still not clear on Superman's history with Doomsday and a whole host of important things that happened during the five year gap that have yet to be explained. We never got to see Lois Lane's famous first interview with Superman or Clark Kent's first day at the Daily Planet. Lana's history with Clark already contradicts itself: Fisch's backups showed Clark leaving Smallville first while Pak chose to show Lana leaving first. We only got to see the beginning of Superman's relationship with the Justice League before a five year flashforward we're just supposed to fill in the blanks ourselves to figure out how those key relationships and team dynamics evolved. I don't see New 52 Superman's journey with the same clarity you possess. It's just not there for me.

His origin is incredibly clear. There's still in between Morrison's run and now that haven't been elaborated on, but the foundation is there and its strong. That's what he didn't have before. Absolutely nothing was clear because you had three distinctly different origin stories and no one could tell you which one was canon, if any. It was ridiculous.

[misslane]

His origin is incredibly clear. There's still in between Morrison's run and now that haven't been elaborated on, but the foundation is there and its strong. That's what he didn't have before.

Yes, it's that unelaborated part that is unclear. It is a part that contains critical elements of Superman's personal journey. If you are satisfied with only half the story, then great.

Absolutely nothing was clear because you had three distinctly different origin stories and no one could tell you which one was canon, if any. It was ridiculous.

I just cannot agree with this. I began reading Superman comics for the first time in my entire life during this time of multiple origin stories, and even a novice like myself could figure it out. It was pretty clear that the most recently published origin was the canon one. The multiple origins were ridiculous but figuring out what was canon was not.

[Cmbmool]

We're talking about a 25+ year history for Post-Crisis Superman versus 3 years of the New 52. I didn't like those last few years of Post-Crisis much either, but they don't define the entire era. The decade before it ended, there were still good patches among the bad ones, or one run that was good getting simultaneously published with a bad one.

To be clear, I understand that Sacred Knight's post was in response to someone (Cmbmool) who was angling for the New 52's replacement. I don't want to see a replacement either, but only because that just seems sloppy, and I actually do like the spirit of the reboot; I want to experience a new take on the characters I love because I like reading stories about them, not because I hated what came before. The spirit of Cmbmool's post and the reaction against the Post-Crisis returning in any way, however, suggests there's some black and white thinking going on that I don't agree with: I neither want everything Post-Crisis to return or think it was always awesome, nor do I want the New 52 to stay exactly as it is since I think it has flaws of its own. I also don't think that any meeting between New 52 Superman and Post-Crisis Superman, which we sort of saw in the first run of Pak's Batman/Superman, needs to take sides as to which one is best; they both have their pros and cons, in my eyes.

So, what I'm trying to say is that I'm not comparing the Grounded era to Morrison's Action Comics run. Rather, I'm making a more general comparison since Sacred Knight's original claim was that it was indisputable Superman (via the New 52) was made a lot better (or as I've chosen to interpret it: he's better off now than he was in the previous era). I'm taking this point of view because surely this possible impending "Crisis," which has inspired us to discuss what elements of the Post-Crisis Superman could return or simply what a meeting between New 52 and Post-Crisis Superman would be like, doesn't have to mean that the precise Post-Crisis elements or portrayal of Superman must be in line with how we last saw him in Grounded. Plus, keep in mind that Grounded ended not only with the reveal that a crystal worsened Superman's mood, but also with Superman reinvigorated. If Post-Crisis elements or Post-Crisis Superman do get revisited somehow, I don't see how that has to be a wholly negative thing. As I see it, there were some good things about both the era and the protagonist that can be played with.

Now HOLD UP, I WANT some aspects/elements of the old Pre-New 52 to return in some form.

I Dislike how BLUE the new Superman suit look, there should be a bit more red into the costume. I also Disliked how they killed any romantic tension between Lois and Clark.

We all have to admit that the New 52 had it problems in the beginning and it still does in some aspects. I truly don't know what to think of this rougher version of the Last Son of Krypton ?

I mean his whole "romantic" relationship with Wonder Woman is more of a sad way to make both characters interesting and also playing up on a long standing plot line based upon some former stories of the past.

I mean the Superman of the new 52 doesn't even carry any of the warmth feeling of the old Superman, five years later or not.

I REMEMBER a Superman that had a smile on his face when meeting a citizen. I remember a Superman that while was scary at first, was someone who can ended up being trustworthy later on in your life....whatever happen to that Superman in the comics ?

[misslane]

Now HOLD UP, I WANT some aspects/elements of the old Pre-New 52 to return in some form.

I wouldn't mind some of the elements of the Post-Crisis to return in some form, and I apologize if I wrongly assumed you wanted all of the Pre-New 52 to return.

[Dispenser Of Truth]

I mean the Superman of the new 52 doesn't even carry any of the warmth feeling of the old Superman, five years later or not.

I REMEMBER a Superman that had a smile on his face when meeting a citizen. I remember a Superman that while was scary at first, was someone who can ended up being trustworthy later on in your life....whatever happen to that Superman in the comics ?

Grant Morrison put him in a t-shirt until he had to start wearing a doofy armor suit.

[Blacksun]

There was also a better Superman that was married to Lois. Lane and was "happy." Not like that mattered anymore.

who cares about a happy superman? more angsty and brooding that will work *new 52 mentality*

[Prime]

Oh. My. God... Relax people.

[Cmbmool]

I wouldn't mind some of the elements of the Post-Crisis to return in some form, and I apologize if I wrongly assumed you wanted all of the Pre-New 52 to return.

While I really would love for the ALL of the Pre-New 52 to come back in some form or another, even I have to admit that there are somethings that cannot be taken away.

I mean despite all of their blunders so far, the new 52 is here to stay, even if we don't like it.