The Legend of Wonder Woman #5 Discussion/Spoilers

[SiegePerilous02]

Just finished reading this. I procrastinated on getting the previous two chapters, so I bought all three and binged read them back to back. This was my favorite chapter yet and it looks like things are gonna get more action packed soon. We also got some interesting name drops that show DeLiz knows her lore (Mala was mentioned last issue, and we get another surprise reveal about Alcippe in this one).

This books is such a breath of fresh air. We get conflict among Diana, Hippolyta and the Amazons without resorting to the stuff the New 52 did, and the artwork continues to be great. Can't wait until we meet Steve, Etta and some villains.

[Nyssane]

This series just keeps getting better and better. I loved the Diana/Hippolyta interactions, I loved the Alcippe revelation, and I loved the ending which we all know what leads to. <3

[SeanT]

This was more enjoyable than last issue but it's still just characters standing around talking, explaining everything to us. To top it off, the dialog is sometimes awkward and stilted, and much too wordy. It could be cut in half without sacrificing the sense.

And if it must be people standing around talking, why can't we see the counsel at least explain why they want to get rid of Hippolyte? Or see one member try and manipulate others? It's a little dull to see things happening off panel or described.

Speaking of which, there's supposed to be some big awful thing happening beyond the walls but except for people talking about it-- mostly Diana-- we get no sense of how it's being conveyed. Not a good way to build suspense. i think we saw some dead plants last issue, but if it's as dire as it's supposed to be, why doesn't it permeate every aspect of the island? A growing sense of uneasiness amongst the Amazons? It should be the invisible character in the background. Instead, it's just mentioned a couple of times, which is not a great way to build a sense of foreboding.

[Javier Velasco]

The book is pretty. I like the diversity, but...

Not digging it. That line about Diana hating to study just didn't sit well with me. A Diana who isn't just as interested in intellectual and spiritual pursuits as she is combat, just doesn't interest me.

Also Diana seems divorced from the Amazon way of life. She certainly doesn't seem to agree with anything that is decided either by her mother or her teachers or the counsel. To the contrary, nothing in Amazon culture seems to have made her happy except learning to fight.

I am sure that there will be some who will say "Of course she loved poetry and history. It just isn't on the page." But this is a comic, unless it is on the page it doesn't exist. And in this case, all we have seen is a unhappy, unfulfilled childhood and teenhood. Except when she is fighting.

Additionally, I don't get the whole Get Rid of the Queen thing. Diana and Alcippe are the only two Amazons who feel like something is going bad on the island. We then flash forward about 8 years and everything looks the same, all of the Amazons are happily having some sort of festival, and suddenly the Amazon Counsel is getting rid of Queen Hippolyta (I am pretty sure that Queens aren't voted into office, if they were there wouldn't be such things as Princesses) because she isn't doing anything about the horrible danger the island is in (which we HAVEN"T SEEN and to our knowledge NO ONE BUT DIANA AND ALCiPPE know about). Did I miss a scene? Alcippe says no one has set foot on the island for centuries. But then Diana mentions "recent troubles", but we haven't seem or heard anything.

As much as I think the writer's heart is in the right place. i think the book needed a stronger editor. If Sad Diana is the direction she wished to go in that's fine. But the call for Hippolyta's dismissal didn't seem justified or well set up by what we had previously seen read in the story or had seen in the lovely art.

[SiegePerilous02]

The book is pretty. I like the diversity, but...

Not digging it. That line about Diana hating to study just didn't sit well with me. A Diana who isn't just as interested in intellectual and spiritual pursuits as she is combat, just doesn't interest me.

Also Diana seems divorced from the Amazon way of life. She certainly doesn't seem to agree with anything that is decided either by her mother or her teachers or the counsel. To the contrary, nothing in Amazon culture seems to have made her happy except learning to fight.

I am sure that there will be some who will say "Of course she loved poetry and history. It just isn't on the page." But this is a comic, unless it is on the page it doesn't exist. And in this case, all we have seen is a unhappy, unfulfilled childhood and teenhood. Except when she is fighting.

Additionally, I don't get the whole Get Rid of the Queen thing. Diana and Alcippe are the only two Amazons who feel like something is going bad on the island. We then flash forward about 8 years and everything looks the same, all of the Amazons are happily having some sort of festival, and suddenly the Amazon Counsel is getting rid of Queen Hippolyta (I am pretty sure that Queens aren't voted into office, if they were there wouldn't be such things as Princesses) because she isn't doing anything about the horrible danger the island is in (which we HAVEN"T SEEN and to our knowledge NO ONE BUT DIANA AND ALCiPPE know about). Did I miss a scene? Alcippe says no one has set foot on the island for centuries. But then Diana mentions "recent troubles", but we haven't seem or heard anything.

As much as I think the writer's heart is in the right place. i think the book needed a stronger editor. If Sad Diana is the direction she wished to go in that's fine. But the call for Hippolyta's dismissal didn't seem justified or well set up by what we had previously seen read in the story or had seen in the lovely art.

I agree that Diana hating studying is pretty strange.

As for the rest of it, I think you're being too harsh, IMO. Diana has been disagreeing with her mother and not conforming to Amazon culture since the 1940s. And her melancholic behavior here isn't a perfect snapshot of what her entire childhood is like. The circumstances she's shown being in (conflict with her mother, sensing something wrong with the island and nobody agreeing with her, getting attacked by a manticore, and receiving tough lessons from a teacher who is initially hostile towards her) aren't going to lead to her smiling all the time. I also don't agree with "if it isn't on the page, it doesn't exist," at least in this situation. Stories don't typically show every minute detail of a protagonists everyday life, so I don't think inferring that Diana had some fun in those 18 years is all that much of a leap. She also clearly loves her mother despite their current disagreements, so they aren't at each other's throats 24/7.

Her only getting fulfillment from fighting isn't strictly true either. Her mother has her path in life laid out for her, and she's finding fulfillment in doing what she wants and exploring different options. We even have her reveal that she wants to explore the world if possible, so she isn't all about fighting.

I too would like a little more clarification on the counsel, but it seems like they and Hippolyta have been debating about the danger for a while, and the general populace of the island has no idea about it. Hippolyta also lead them to disaster before as shown in the first issue, so if her being wishy washy might lead to something worse, it makes sense that they'd want to replace.

[Javier Velasco]

Diana has been disagreeing with her mother and not conforming to Amazon culture since the 1940s. And her melancholic behavior here isn't a perfect snapshot of what her entire childhood is like..I also don't agree with "if it isn't on the page, it doesn't exist," at least in this situation. Stories don't typically show every minute detail of a protagonists everyday life, so I don't think inferring that Diana had some fun in those 18 years is all that much of a leap..Her only getting fulfillment from fighting isn't strictly true either.

Actually, the 40's - 90's WW was always extolling her Amazon upbringing and training as a model for the Outside World. I don't see this Diana on the path to do that. The writer has already stated on this forum that she sees Diana as an overly serious child. Additionally, she has stated that she is using Etta Candy as a way to make Diana less serious. As in Etta is teaching Diana to lighten up and be happy. We have Hippolyta willing to let Diana train with Alcippe because it is the only thing that is making her daughter smile. If her daughter smiled routinely then I don't think her mom would have let her do something she clearly disagreed with.

As far as only accepting what is on the page, that is really all that one can argue in a written document. Things not on the page can be inferred, but that is not the case here. Please show me one instance in the 5 issues so far that infer that Diana had been happy or was ever interested in anything other than protecting the island via learning to fight. Likewise, are there any image of Diana in a not serious mode before she is shown in a relaxed mode in issue 5.
Additionally wanting to explore the outside world (which we don't get until Diana is grown up) is not fullfilment. It is desire. Desire does not make you happy. If that desire is never, or can never, be acted upon, it only makes you frustrated.

Also, am I incorrect or have we only seen and heard of allegiance to male gods?

[SiegePerilous02]

Actually, the 40's - 90's WW was always extolling her Amazon upbringing and training as a model for the Outside World. I don't see this Diana on the path to do that. The writer has already stated on this forum that she sees Diana as an overly serious child. Additionally, she has stated that she is using Etta Candy as a way to make Diana less serious. As in Etta is teaching Diana to lighten up and be happy. We have Hippolyta willing to let Diana train with Alcippe because it is the only thing that is making her daughter smile. If her daughter smiled routinely then I don't think her mom would have let her do something she clearly disagreed with.

As far as only accepting what is on the page, that is really all that one can argue in a written document. Things not on the page can be inferred, but that is not the case here. Please show me one instance in the 5 issues so far that infer that Diana had been happy or was ever interested in anything other than protecting the island via learning to fight. Likewise, are there any image of Diana in a not serious mode before she is shown in a relaxed mode in issue 5.
Additionally wanting to explore the outside world (which we don't get until Diana is grown up) is not fullfilment. It is desire. Desire does not make you happy. If that desire is never, or can never, be acted upon, it only makes you frustrated.

Also, am I incorrect or have we only seen and heard of allegiance to male gods?

Maybe she shared her Amazon values, but she still disobeyed her mother and fell in love with a man, entered the Contest, and left the island to go on adventures in the outside world. We also don't yet know how Diana will operate in the outside world; maybe she'll use her Amazon lessons as a guideline for her new life there and share them with others?

Being an overly serious child doesn't translate to being an unhappy child. Some people are stoic/serious, but they're not miserable. Etta can get her to loosen up, but I doubt knowing Etta is gonna be the first time she knows happiness. Diana is melancholic now because she feels the island is suffering and her mother is pressuring her to take the throne when she doesn't want to. The training is what she looks forward to most at this time in her life, but that doesn't mean she was always like that. And the other Amazon children want to play with her, and both she and they express disappointment that she has to attend to her palace duties. It's not like one of the other children said "Diana's such a stick in the mud, she always sucks the fun right out of everything." So far her childhood seems happier than the Azzarello run, and even that featured her being sorta friends with Aleka, so it wasn't misery city 24/7.

I can't point out an instance of Diana being relaxed before issue 5, but that's because Chapters 1-4 take place over the course of one day, and considering the circumstances, it isn't unusual that she's not relaxed all that much. We meet her when she's just starting to feel the weird stuff on the island. And keep in mind we've pretty much only read the equivalent of 1.5 issues of a monthly book.

Demeter is mentioned in the first issue, but it is interesting that they even have a temple dedicated to Ares. Maybe he's not overly villainous in this continuity? Aside from those two, we've had mentions of one of the Amazon girls saying Artemis spoke to her in a dream, along with mentions of Apollo, Poseidon, and Hades. I do hope we get some Athena and Aphrodite.

[Javier Velasco]

Maybe she shared her Amazon values, but she still disobeyed her mother and fell in love with a man, entered the Contest, and left the island to go on adventures in the outside world. We also don't yet know how Diana will operate in the outside world; maybe she'll use her Amazon lessons as a guideline for her new life there and share them with others?

Yes, but which Amazon lessons would those be? The ones that she hated studying? Sure, Diana did all of the things you said, but it was never shown that she was unhappy on the island before. Quite the contrary, we saw Diana very happy on PI. It was a sacrifice for her to leave Paradise. This is all pre-Azzarello of course.

[Javier Velasco]

Being an overly serious child doesn't translate to being an unhappy child...So far her childhood seems happier than the Azzarello run, and even that featured her being sorta friends with Aleka, so it wasn't misery city 24/7.

The idea of a Diana being taunted as being "Clay" sounds miserable, and you will not find me to be an apologist for Azzarello's run.

And no, being a serious child does not equate to being an unhappy one, but in the absence of ANY images of Lil Diana smiling or having a pleasant thought the writer/artist is making a statement. You mentioned the other Amazon girls wanting to play with her. But look at what they say. "Does she never have time to play?" "How sad." That doesn't sound to me like someone who used to play with her friends. It sounds like someone who has never played with her friends. It also sounds like someone who is viewed by her peers as "sad."

[Tayswift]

This series is fantastic. The art is so good, I really like how Renae draws kid Diana and teen diana.

I wish it could show more diana having some fun. I sense philipus and hippolyta shipping

[blaster86]

Wait troia? Is that Donna Troy sweet

[Largo161]

A talky chapter, which isn't necessarily a bad thing, but the note we ended chapter four with led me to expect action to be closer at hand. I enjoyed the Phillipus/Alcippe reveal.

I thought the art was a notch below standard this time. The layouts of pages seven through ten felt static. Especially compared to some earlier chapters where the use of perspective and color on Themyscira made the panels look practically 3D.

Some interesting wrinkles woven into the relationship amongst Diana, the Queen and the counsel.

I don't know if I would call Diana sad...more along the lines of she's the gifted child who is bored, unfulfilled on the island.

I do agree that the impending danger sure has been impending for what seems like a long time in story years, but in this chapter it doesn't feel palpable.

[brettc1]

Diana hating studying is not that strange - it's actually pretty human.

I remember back in the Perez years there was an annual story about how Diana disliked learning how to dive into water because she liked flying better. Children are children and to be believable they need to be written as such. You cannot expect a ten year old to have the emotional maturity of an adult. So while I am sure that as she grown Diana will come to appreciate her studies, as a child its perfectly normal for her to have to be pushed a little.

Meanwhile, I am loving his so much. References to Mala, the Phillipus reveal, Hippolyta hinting at her feelings for her captain, and of course Diana herself. Just wonderful.

[Tayswift]

Diana hating studying is not that strange - it's actually pretty human.

I remember back in the Perez years there was an annual story about how Diana disliked learning how to dive into water because she liked flying better. Children are children and to be believable they need to be written as such. You cannot expect a ten year old to have the emotional maturity of an adult. So while I am sure that as she grown Diana will come to appreciate her studies, as a child its perfectly normal for her to have to be pushed a little.

Meanwhile, I am loving his so much. References to Mala, the Phillipus reveal, Hippolyta hinting at her feelings for her captain, and of course Diana herself. Just wonderful.

kids love to do exactlu opposite of what parents want of them