Batman and Robin Eternal #11 Preview / Discussion

[Darkspellmaster]

I just reread 'No Man's Land' for the debut of Cass Cain.
People complaining that Harper is being pushed too hard on the audience shouild read that story for some perspective.
Cass Cain is introduced and then two issues later she's given the Batgirl suit by Batman himself, with the full support of Oracle and the rest of the team. And at that point she hadn't even spoken!

While true enough on the idea that Cass was introduced and then given the Batgirl suit only two issues later, you have to bear in mind that 1) Cassandra was already an agent of Oracle at this time, so she already had the okay from Babs who probably had some better knowledge about her then the others. 2) Cassandra was already trained and was able to handle herself, there was no need to train her at all from Bruce or the others. She didn't need anyone to guide her or help her out in that area. She knew what she needed to do and did it. 3) She saved the Commissioner from being assassinated, something that proved her to be able to deal with some pretty hard core situations, 4) she also had people with her for a long while and the build up around her was based on the issue that she wanted to die.

Harper on the other hand, well we don't know as much about outside of Loving sister, good with certain skills, and that's about it.

Now THAT is the author's playing favourites.

Anybody here who was reading Batman at the time, can you tell me: was there a big outcry about that? About a new character being given a legacy identity pretty much right away? Especially because in the lead up there was all this mystery about the strange new batgirl, and then Huntress was straight rejected in favour of Cass. I bet Helena fans were piiiiiiiiiissed.

Huntress fans were upset true enough, but there was a difference. Unlike now, that was no mans land. A lot of things were going down and characters had to work together to keep the world from being utterly destroyed.

[Aahz]

And unlike now, the Batfamily wasn't so big, the characters and their relation were well established, and most of the more popular characters had their own solo. Thats not really the case now, especially Tim still suffering from the reboot and had no real interaction with Bruce in the new 52 (and hardly any with Dick).


Cass was also very different from the existing Batfamily members and Harper on the other hand feels very generic.

[Darkspellmaster]

I swear in about two maybe three years we're going to see another reboot from all of this. I don't doubt it.

Given how Harper is, I wouldn't be surprised if eventually someone goes and turns her into a villain, or, god forbid, pulls what they pulled on Steph with a war games like situation.

[Cowtools]

While true enough on the idea that Cass was introduced and then given the Batgirl suit only two issues later, you have to bear in mind that 1) Cassandra was already an agent of Oracle at this time, so she already had the okay from Babs who probably had some better knowledge about her then the others. 2) Cassandra was already trained and was able to handle herself, there was no need to train her at all from Bruce or the others. She didn't need anyone to guide her or help her out in that area. She knew what she needed to do and did it. 3) She saved the Commissioner from being assassinated, something that proved her to be able to deal with some pretty hard core situations, 4) she also had people with her for a long while and the build up around her was based on the issue that she wanted to die.

Huntress fans were upset true enough, but there was a difference. Unlike now, that was no mans land. A lot of things were going down and characters had to work together to keep the world from being utterly destroyed.

And unlike now, the Batfamily wasn't so big, the characters and their relation were well established, and most of the more popular characters had their own solo. Thats not really the case now, especially Tim still suffering from the reboot and had no real interaction with Bruce in the new 52 (and hardly any with Dick).

This is all true, and it seems fine in retrospect, given how Cass developed as a character. But it was still a very abrupt introduction in the middle of a chaotic line-wide event. A lot of what we knew about Cass before she became batgirl was told, rather than shown. Harper has been around for longer than she was before she joined the team, and has actually had far more face-to-face interaction with Batman.

[sghood]

I thought tony daniel was going to be the head artist for the series? hes only done the first issue and some covers, is he going to do more towards the end? would love to see more of his art.
Harper isn't a crappy character, i just think by rushing her and not showing her actuallly getting hardcore training makes it not believable that she can keep up. i think it would of been cool to have her start as like an oracle/proxy type character who also did the mechanical stuff like harold and then eventually went into the field

[oasis1313]

That book has the ugliest cover I have ever seen on a comic book in over 50 years.

[HeWhoSlapsAll]

That book has the ugliest cover I have ever seen on a comic book in over 50 years.

​Hardly the case, here.

[Kurtzberg]

I thought tony daniel was going to be the head artist for the series? hes only done the first issue and some covers, is he going to do more towards the end? would love to see more of his art.
Harper isn't a crappy character, i just think by rushing her and not showing her actuallly getting hardcore training makes it not believable that she can keep up. i think it would of been cool to have her start as like an oracle/proxy type character who also did the mechanical stuff like harold and then eventually went into the field

I lean this way. Although, I tend to go a bit further. I think when creating new Bat characters, they shouldn't all be super smart, computer genius, tech wonder, kung-fu fighting, super athlete acrobat detectives with tragic backstories that Harper and Duke will eventually end up being (like all Bat sidekicks).
Different people have different strengths and weaknesses, and if they created characters that couldn't do some things, but could do others that that might stand out and end up being more novel in the end, such as a more developed Harold. I'd appreciate just one of those, and maybe just one that wasn't another underage minor. Maybe someone who isn't a jack of all trades, maybe they just aren't great at math and science or shun field work because they tend towards pacifism but still want to help fight crime because they realize how bad Gotham is, or maybe they just don't have the physical ability to punch out bad guys. A physical or mental disability (that isn't born of some horrible tragic incident like Barbara). Some weakness or weaknesses, besides something like being the angry or reckless one, which just tends to morph into rebellious badass.

[darkseidpwns]

The characters aren't the problem the problem is the story. These Eternal books are just trying to relive a bygone era,they're not pushing the narrative forward,instead they are using the same tropes and beats repeatedly and in some cases with these new characters which is what makes them redundant. If the writers cannot move the narrative forward or push the story in new direction then "new" characters aren't going to do anything new at all simply because they have nothing new to play with.

Stop messing with origins,dont rewrite old stories and do something that takes character development forward. I dont want to read watered versions of Hush and Knightfall,I want something new.

[kaimaciel]

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Sorry for posting this in here, but I didn't know where to post it... Anyway, is Tim the one across from Cassandra?

[joybeans]

Hey look, more Harper shilling, taking up so much room in the corner. Gah!

[jules]

Hey look, more Harper shilling, taking up so much room in the corner. Gah!

At least Duke and Damian are sized at the same level. No judgement in that cover about which of them takes precedence.

[The Cool Thatguy]

I lean this way. Although, I tend to go a bit further. I think when creating new Bat characters, they shouldn't all be super smart, computer genius, tech wonder, kung-fu fighting, super athlete acrobat detectives with tragic backstories that Harper and Duke will eventually end up being (like all Bat sidekicks).
Different people have different strengths and weaknesses, and if they created characters that couldn't do some things, but could do others that that might stand out and end up being more novel in the end, such as a more developed Harold. I'd appreciate just one of those, and maybe just one that wasn't another underage minor. Maybe someone who isn't a jack of all trades, maybe they just aren't great at math and science or shun field work because they tend towards pacifism but still want to help fight crime because they realize how bad Gotham is, or maybe they just don't have the physical ability to punch out bad guys. A physical or mental disability (that isn't born of some horrible tragic incident like Barbara). Some weakness or weaknesses, besides something like being the angry or reckless one, which just tends to morph into rebellious badass.

They kinda have to be super capable in some fashion, given that said side kicks are going to be going up against the likes of Joker, Killer Croc, etc.

Batman treads the line between anti-hero and superhero with a taste of noir, but his sidekicks don't have super powers to justify their presence on the battle field. Absent that, they need motivations to explain why the adult (Batman) doesn't send them packing and abilities to justify their ability to survive (Dick and Cass' training, Tim's wits, etc).

Absent those two things, it's just reckless endangerment.

[DGraysonWorldsGreatestSpy]

The problem is that Duke and Harper have been written at times in an slightly passive aggressive arrogant way that can rub some off in a time where the many Bat characters needed new guidance to people feel they are taking away from the development of others because they are Scott Snyders creations. The characters themselves are not bad and have solid potential to stick around but their origins are as mixed as Tim Drake's New 52 origin so the fact they have no history puts them in a bad corner. The reason Damian Wayne was able to gain success despite being initially hated is he had his driving creator in Morrison build him up while Snyder character like Talon ended up being cancelled is he had only a small tie to the Bat Universe and was given a book with little to know build up which is what Duke and Harper are partially doing. Snyder should have made more of an effort including in their stories instead of having it done in other books.

[KrustyKid]

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Sorry for posting this in here, but I didn't know where to post it... Anyway, is Tim the one across from Cassandra?

Yep, it appears to be