"Face It Tiger...", Mary Jane Watson/Parker Appreciation

[Huntsman Spider]

I will always be amused by Gerry Conway's response to Stone's Gwen.

https://twitter.com/gerryconway/stat...rc=twsrc%5Etfw

Ha, good one. Very good one.

[AngelJD]

Being that I got into comics around 2014 I get my information by looking it all up online.

So I want to ask a few questions that was brought about from that Gerry response above.

Now it was he who wrote the death of Gwen Stacy 616 and based on my research it was due to that he wanted to boost sales/interest (much like how they kill characters now to boost sales as well) and that was inspired based on a series he enjoyed.
I also seemed he was a MJ fan and shipped Peter and MJ over Gwen that was written before he took over which is a prime reason why he picked Gwen as the shocking death allowing MJ and Peter to be able to hook up (which has me a bit uneasy with that as I've read plenty of "Ron the death eater" and "Die for Our Ship" tropes from fanfictions, forum topics, and even in professional works so with that vibe it comes off badly).
On the massively good side the writer was also able to use the death as a way to further developed for MJ as a more serous character (losing some of the party girl characterization due to grief and the fact that life can end and is precious) and for most made her stronger overall as a character. A future writer would go on to showcase this a bit in "Spider-Man: Blue" which is one of my favorites as it showcases both MJ and Gwen not just as love rivals for Peter but did go into their friendship (the writer seem to have it that when Peter wasn't in the picture both were friends and hanged out with each other even) which for me was more enjoyable to see and strengthen both without having to knock one or the other down to do so. Unfortunate that story wasn't made till much later and I'm asking mostly about when Gerry started as the official writer for Spider-man (August 1972 – October 1975) with issue #111 where ten issues later he would kill Gwen in #121

If I'm misinterpreting or missing anything I wouldn't mind to be corrected.

Now when did exactly MJ discover Peter and Spider-Man was one and the same? If that reveal happen before Conway became the writer or during or after. I know in 1996 a issue called Untold Tales of Spider-Man Vol 1 16 made it that she so happen to saw Peter coming out of the window as Spider-Man to chase after Ben's killer but due to being made in 1996 I just want to know when she publicly first made her knowledge known before any written changes/additions to the past was made?

The thing is about my own research on 616 Gwen and 616 MJ just as Gerry took over it seem that to me Emma Stone Gwen Stacy (or Earth-120703 Gwen Stacy) wasn't like ether MJ or Gwen of 616 when Gerry took over. Thus to me his answer would of been more akin to "If I took over Spider-Man and 616 Gwen was made to be just like 120703 Gwen then my answer is no as I like her" a the question was if Gwen 616 was more like the Emma Stone written and acted version.

616 MJ at that time just before Gerry took over didn't give off clues based on my research that she knew Peter Parker and Spider-Man was the same. MJ was the party girl and a love interest and a love rival for Gwen but nothing else really. She and Gwen both also had their moments of "damsel in distress" before Gerry took over also with Spider-man saving the day and that's it. She also had that iconic scene and line written for her (that seems to be abuse alot by writers to the point it starting to be more of a joke or even used as a Joke as Example from a recent Iron man variant cover: "Tony: Face it, Tiger. You just hit the... MJ: HEARD IT.")

So looking into some things about 120703 Gwen:

1. Scientific wiz in her own right and Valentoren: More in sync to 616 Gwen as 616 Gwen was also a science enthusiast like Peter.
2. Father dies while peter battles a villain: 616 Gwen (however the details and many other changes was made like how 616 Captain Stacy gave up his life to save boy 120703 lost his saving Peter plus the final words was basically the opposite as 616
3. Captain Stacy wanted Peter "to be good to Gwen" while the other 120703 basically said "STAY AWAY from GWEN and don't drag her into your ####!")
4. Gwen gets told and knows Peter is Spider-man: Neither 616 MJ or Gwen at the time just before Gerry took over. If anything this is more akin for other versions of Gwen and MJ like for Gwen: House of M Gwen (which due to Secret Wars Battleworld their was a domain thus there is a existing world during the incursions thus that earth and it's inhabits exist and so does Gwen of that world) and even Ultimate Gwen when she discovered and came to be at peace with that knowledge after a rough period.
5. 120703 Gwen helps Peter be his Secret Keeper and even helps out when she can using her own scientific mind, resourcefulness, and bravery to assist, save, and back up Spider-Man: Again Neither based on what I read about both.

Overall based on my research 120703 was a composite of many different Gwens and even MJs of many AUs plus some influence due to the current time period. The parts of 616 Gwen they took (before Gerry began writing for Spider-man) was that: Science enthusiast (but ramped up allowing her to be able to help Peter and be equals in their science talents in various forms), her father dies (but with a different message for Peter being said), (a) girlfriend of Peter Parker (nothing much to write on this matter).

Thus to me the answer to if 120703 Gwen was more akin to 616 Gwen or 616 MJ before Gerry took over that Gwen would be the winner but with the barest of details and not her characterization. 120703 Gwen's characterization was so very different from both and i feel if I had to pick one Gwen out of the few I know of in the Multiverse than House of M Gwen and 120703 was more like than most others: Knows Peter and Spider-Man are one and same, supports Peter, heads into danger (using the web shooters) when Peter went off the deep end to discover what was going on and trying to help Peter (with Ben and her father's assistance), has a scientific mind as well and help run Peter's and her company. But still even this Gwen didn't become known to use till 2005. Won't be surprise that the writers of 120703 Gwen took some inspection on writing her from a few Gwen's like: House of M, animated Spectacular series, and a few others plus trying to avoid what people didn't like about the MJ Spider-man movie version before and take what was praised or enjoyed from that. What the writers did take from 616 seemed mostly her landmark (and her dad's) "tragic death" that was famous and well know associated with the 616 character (to the point before Earth-65 Gwen came on the scene that heavy institutionalized accustom assumption mindset was found on forums whenever a new AU Gwen showed up "When will Gwen die" and most likely pressured the writers to kill her even though she was well liked and also she isn't 616 Gwen thus their really shouldn't be a set standard on any other Gwen's fates just because one version of Gwen died but should really be written to what would be for the best for the story, it's characters, and characterizations and developments overall).




So my big question based on Gerry's response to the MJ fans here who might help me fill in the missing pieces or help give further insight is: "How is 616 MJ akin to 120703 Gwen taking only the known info to readers/fans before August 1972/Spider-Man #111 when Gerry became the main writer?"

[Kevinroc]

It was John Romita Sr.'s idea to kill Gwen.

http://www.comicbookresources.com/ar...h-and-stan-lee

I would be remiss if I didn't bring up one of the biggest events in the history of Marvel Comics, which you were involved with, the Death of Gwen Stacy.

Yes, I'm the murderer. [Laughs]

The reason I take the credit for it was we were told to kill Aunt May. Gerry Conway and I got together for our plot session -- we used to get together at his apartment -- and he said, how are we going to kill Aunt May? I said, if you kill Aunt May, you're not going to do a damn bit of good to the strip. It'll lose one of Peter Parker's hangups. He won't have to worry about Aunt May anymore. He won't be treated like a child anymore. If we want to make any kind of stir in the monthly line, we have to kill somebody important. That means we need to kill Mary Jane or Gwen Stacy.

The reason I told we should kill Gwen Stacy was Mary Jane was an airheaded comedy character at the time. She was there to jazz the place up. She was not his girlfriend. His girlfriend was Gwen Stacy. I said, I learned from Milton Caniff. Milton Caniff every three or four years killed an important character. I remember as a young boy hearing adults saying that did you see that Raven Sherman has been killed in "Terry and the Pirates?" I said to myself, oh my god, grownups are talking about "Terry and the Pirates?" They worried about Raven Sherman. Raven Sherman was Pat Ryan's girlfriend in "Terry and the Pirates." I was an avid reader of "Terry and the Pirates." It hurt me, but I didn't expect it to hurt grownups. That stayed with me. I told Gerry Conway that story and I said, if you want to kill somebody, kill somebody important or leave it alone. He said it was a good idea. He was all for it because I convinced him, that would get attention. I submit that after forty years, I think it's still getting attention. [Laughs] I think I was right.

Gerry Conway liked MJ a bunch, and probably thought she had a wealth of potential to explore. Supporting characters in those days weren't particularly deep. And MJ was presented as a one-dimensional party girl. She didn't care about Spider-Man in those days. And the idea that she knew wasn't something that anybody had thought of.

MJ revealed in ASM (Vol. 1) #257 (written by Tom DeFalco) that she knew Peter was Spider-Man. For context, Peter and MJ had dated in the past but had broken up following her rejection of Peter's first proposal. She left the title for awhile, but came back and the two became friends again. Peter was also rocking the black symbiote that would eventually become Venom. As MJ is visiting, Puma tracks Spidey to his apartment and attacks him. Peter gets MJ out of the apartment and takes the fight outside. MJ breaks the door down (damn, girl) and realizes Peter is gone. After the fight, Peter goes back to his apartment and sees MJ is still there. It's at this point that MJ breaks down and admits that she knows Peter is Spider-Man. Peter freaks out. Then Black Cat (who Peter was romantically involved with at the time) drops by as Peter is trying to find some way to tell MJ she's mistaken. Seeing Black Cat, MJ leaves.

She comes back a few issues later (Amazing vol. 1 #259, also credited to DeFalco. But using elements established by Roger Stern) and tells Peter her backstory (for a character who was first mentioned in ASM vol. 1 #15, we knew next to nothing about MJ beyond her Aunt Anna was Aunt May's friend and neighbor). Showing a more vulnerable side than she had previously. (One of the biggest constants in the Marvel Multiverse is that MJ's father is a complete ass.)

Around the time of the wedding, Gerry Conway made one of his many returns to Spider-Man and wrote "Parallel Lives," which revealed that MJ knew Peter was Spider-Man since the night Uncle Ben died and kept it secret until Puma attacked Peter in his apartment. This is one of the more divisive Spider-Man stories.

The thing about Gwen in the ASM films was she felt more like the MJ as presented in the Ultimate Spider-Man comics than classic or even Ultimate Gwen. Because U!MJ feels a lot like it was following the "Spider-Man's wife as a teenager" characterization. She served as Peter's confidant. She was a bit dorkier than she might initially seem (this is also true of 616 MJ.) She was presented as a bit brainier than her 616 counterpart (although 616 MJ seemed more street smarts).

The relationship with Gwen was classically interpreted as an inversion of the Superman/Clark Kent/Lois Lane love triangle. Lois was fairly indifferent to Clark, but she was in love with Superman. Gwen was in love with Peter, but hated Spider-Man. She blamed Spider-Man for her father's death. Even in Ultimate, Gwen pulled out a gun on Peter after she found out he was Spider-Man. I think the ASM movies did a disservice by removing this classic element, this central conflict in their relationship, and replacing it with poor foreshadowing over Gwen's death.

[Spider-Tiger]

I also seemed he was a MJ fan and shipped Peter and MJ over Gwen that was written before he took over which is a prime reason why he picked Gwen as the shocking death allowing MJ and Peter to be able to hook up (which has me a bit uneasy with that as I've read plenty of "Ron the death eater" and "Die for Our Ship" tropes from fanfictions, forum topics, and even in professional works so with that vibe it comes off badly).

It's true that Gerry prefers Mary Jane's personality to Gwen's (he's very vocal about this) and that he used Gwen's death to add some development to MJ's character. However, if I'm not mistaken, Gerry was also against the Peter/MJ wedding, and Gerry's handling of Gwen's death did a lot to romanticize the Peter/Gwen relationship and Peter's love for Gwen...arguably one of the reasons she's such a pivotal character to this day.

If anything, MJ has been subject to that "Ron the Death Eater" trope...for driving Harry to drugs and pushing Gwen off the bridge. Even with the "Gwen loved Peter, and MJ only loved Spider-man" line pushed by the Webb films

[Huntsman Spider]

It's true that Gerry prefers Mary Jane's personality to Gwen's (he's very vocal about this) and that he used Gwen's death to add some development to MJ's character. However, if I'm not mistaken, Gerry was also against the Peter/MJ wedding, and Gerry's handling of Gwen's death did a lot to romanticize the Peter/Gwen relationship and Peter's love for Gwen...arguably one of the reasons she's such a pivotal character to this day.

If anything, MJ has been subject to that "Ron the Death Eater" trope...for driving Harry to drugs and pushing Gwen off the bridge. Even with the "Gwen loved Peter, and MJ only loved Spider-man" line pushed by the Webb films

Pretty much, generally by people still sour that it was the practically canonized (as in Catholic sainthood) Gwen who died and thus didn't get to marry Peter instead of Mary Jane, which also adds in a certain troubling tinge of the Madonna-whore complex, with Gwen as the Madonna (ignoring Sins Past) and Mary Jane as the whore (ignoring her character development after Gwen's death and her genuine love for and loyalty to Peter throughout the years they were together).

[Kevinroc]

Pretty much, generally by people still sour that it was the practically canonized (as in Catholic sainthood) Gwen who died and thus didn't get to marry Peter instead of Mary Jane, which also adds in a certain troubling tinge of the Madonna-whore complex, with Gwen as the Madonna (ignoring Sins Past) and Mary Jane as the whore (ignoring her character development after Gwen's death and her genuine love for and loyalty to Peter throughout the years they were together).

Even in the years they weren't together. Peter seems pretty unconcerned that MJ would ever betray him or reveal his secrets.

[Huntsman Spider]

Even in the years they weren't together. Peter seems pretty unconcerned that MJ would ever betray him or reveal his secrets.

That was beautiful. And yeah, that actually says a lot about Mary Jane's character and how much trust and faith Peter places in her along with their love, certainly a lot more than her detractors would ever admit.

[Kevinroc]

That was beautiful. And yeah, that actually says a lot about Mary Jane's character and how much trust and faith Peter places in her along with their love, certainly a lot more than her detractors would ever admit.

I can't believe Marvel published the scene that comic was from just before One More Day. (I posted it because it's a great scene that highlights MJ's loyalty.)

[Huntsman Spider]

I can't believe Marvel published the scene that comic was from just before One More Day. (I posted it because it's a great scene that highlights MJ's loyalty.)

People at Marvel were clearly not all ok with where Joe Quesada was heading with Spider-Man.

[Frontier]

People at Marvel were clearly not all ok with where Joe Quesada was heading with Spider-Man.

The opinion against the marriage at Marvel certainly wasn't monolith.

I know Bendis was outspoken about supporting it and I think PAD as well. And of course you have Fraction writing the Sensational Annual, which basically showcased the strength of the marriage and why it works.

[Mister Mets]

I can't believe Marvel published the scene that comic was from just before One More Day. (I posted it because it's a great scene that highlights MJ's loyalty.)

They wanted to tell a good married Spider-Man story when they had the chance.

[Confuzzled]

To Have and to Hold was a love letter and parting gift to the marriage.

[Kevinroc]

Folks, I know WHY Fraction's annual was published. I am merely expressing surprise that it WAS published. The word from Marvel at the time was that the marriage had to go, come hell or high water.

(And yes, I am aware of how that expression sounds when used in the context of the end of the Spider-Marriage. )

[Confuzzled]

I don't think they thought much of it beyond throwing fans a bone.

[Tuck]

Pretty much, generally by people still sour that it was the practically canonized (as in Catholic sainthood) Gwen who died and thus didn't get to marry Peter instead of Mary Jane, which also adds in a certain troubling tinge of the Madonna-whore complex, with Gwen as the Madonna (ignoring Sins Past) and Mary Jane as the whore (ignoring her character development after Gwen's death and her genuine love for and loyalty to Peter throughout the years they were together).

Might be thinking about this too hard. It was just a Betty/Veronica thing.

Gwen's sainthood is really more the JFK effect. What could have been.