Kylo Ren vs. Skywalkers (Obviously, Force Awakens Spoilers)

[Iron_Twister]

Finally saw the film and yeah, I saw Kylo Ren as a somewhat impressive force user...Who still needs some training and is indeed more of a pawn of Snoke than a villain of his own right as he has shown to severe issues trying to be much like Vader but doesn't exactly do well in it which bothers the Hell out of him (cause Vader didn't go on a freaking tantrum with his saber when he fucked up a situation for one and dude just tries too hard).

spoilers:

But yeah, now that the ending has pretty much given the heroes a higher chance of beating Snoke as Luke is brought back to the fold, that Snoke is probably going to train Ren to be much more powerful (aka make him a better fighter) ...But otherwise, Ren himself was a bit of a scrub with potential whose still tough (he still got shot by Chewie after all) but not exactly a beast.

end of spoilers

I wasn't too surprised with Rey, as there is some something about her past that even she isn't too aware about despite her supposed lack of understanding the force (to some extent, given she did things that she supposedly has no knowledge about...It does raises questions bout who she really is). The film showed her as being very powerful in the force and well...The force can make you do some crazy amazing stuff even to those who had like small advice from the get-go (Luke blowing up the death star with no targeting computer, Anakin piloting a starfighter without dying when he's like freaking ten or something). Unlike Luke and Anakin, Rey's been pretty much established as a capable fighter from the start so I guess it wasn't too far fetched.

With Finn, the guy has combat training, and it's a tad ridiculous to say he has no melee skills because I'm pretty sure any army has to cover hand to hand combat. I mean yes, he would rather have a blaster as he has often mentioned but when the opposition are well armed with guns as well...You could understand why he would prefer a gun. While he held his own against Ren, Ren did win the fight.

[Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh]

I guess my main question is if Ren is a force user.

[Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh]

Finn I mean

[Iron_Twister]

Finn I mean

It's possible but the film seems to have ruled it out so far as he hasn't shown any other ability other than using the lightsaber in my opinion. Most EU works that made it clear that unless you're very familiar with the weapon (or at least have some training involved), you're just gonna hurt yourself using such a weapon. But seeing how the EU has been axed, it may as well be that anyone with combat skills can use a saber...It's just that without the force to guide you, it makes fighting with one a tad harder.

[The Drunkard Kid]

It's possible but the film seems to have ruled it out so far as he hasn't shown any other ability other than using the lightsaber in my opinion. Most EU works that made it clear that unless you're very familiar with the weapon (or at least have some training involved), you're just gonna hurt yourself using such a weapon. But seeing how the EU has been axed, it may as well be that anyone with combat skills can use a saber...It's just that without the force to guide you, it makes fighting with one a tad harder.

I'm wondering if his breaking out of his conditioning mid-op might be some sort of indication of at least mild Force sensitivity, like he students experienced a low level version of Obi-Wan's "million voices crying out" thing.

[Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh]

I'm wondering if his breaking out of his conditioning mid-op might be some sort of indication of at least mild Force sensitivity, like he students experienced a low level version of Obi-Wan's "million voices crying out" thing.

That's what I was thinking, I mean they made a specific point of asking if he'd had this issue before after finding out he'd deserted, and Phasma said "this is his first offense".

[FennerMachine]

Only Anakin does. Ep 5 Luke gets stomped.

I disagree.
Ren has more raw force skill/power than Luke but is unstable.
Arguably Ren has more knowledge of the force than Anakin, but Anakin is much better trained and even when he loses it he does it properly and goes total nuttz!
Luke is a better swordsman even in ep5.
Anakin would stomp Ren.
Luke would win most rounds again Ren.

[Cody]

I disagree.
Ren has more raw force skill/power than Luke but is unstable.

Based on literally nothing.

Arguably Ren has more knowledge of the force than Anakin,

Anakin had more training than Ren did by Ep 2. Pretty sure Anakin knew more than him.

Luke is a better swordsman even in ep5.

Based on literally nothing at all. Ep 5 Lukes entire performance involved being toyed with by Vader and ultimately losing a hand.

That isn't a performance that would put him above Ren.

Luke would win most rounds again Ren.

Feats say otherwise.

[Ite]

Finn I mean

No he isn't.

[JohnDiggle]

KYLO REN may have been disappointing to some but in terms of villains I'd put him over the disappointing Ultron and the crappy Antman and Bond villain we got this year. Immortan Joe and his crew are still my favorite villains of 2015.

Back on Topic Ren should be able to take a victory.

[StupidMoniker]

(I forgot exactly what he said at the meeting before they attacked the Death Star).

He used to bullseye womprats in his T-16 back home, and they're not much bigger than two meters.

[Jcogginsa]

While I enjoyed the movie overall, I wasn't too impressed by the villain. He failed to kill a stormtrooper with apparently no melee training in a lightsaber duel, and was defeated by a completely untrained Force-Sensitive wielding a lightsaber for the first time.

Can he beat Padawan Anakin, as of Episode 2?
Can he beat Luke, as of Episode 5?

If not, is there a Jedi he can beat?

That's not exactly true. Finn had no melee training with a lightsaber, but he obviously had combat training.

Likewise, Rey had no lightsaber training, but we saw that she knew her way around melee weapons and fighting pretty well. A lightsaber is a different kind of animal than any other weapon, but it's not like they were both helpless babies or anything.

We see Ren exhibit tons of raw power through the movie. (and eventually, we see Rey do the same) but you have to remember that the new movies are trying to go back to the themes of the originals: Nobody is really trained anymore because the Jedi *and* the Sith are gone. Everybody is self-taught (or they had teachers that didn't really know how to teach very well) and all the force-users are kind of figuring it out as they go.

It was a fantastic movie, anyways, so your complaints are all nitpicking. You've been hanging around the forum too long if you can't enjoy a movie just because the villain isn't some hyper-competent Gary Stu.

According to some expanded Materials, All First Order Storm Troopers are trained to combat lightsaber wielding opponents. And Finn was at the top of his class in his storm trooper training

So Finn is no slouch

[Captain Jibberish]

Based on literally nothing at all. Ep 5 Lukes entire performance involved being toyed with by Vader and ultimately losing a hand.

Luke did manage to tag Vader on the shoulder in the ESB duel, which I wouldn't say is nothing.
I'm not sure how Empire Luke would handle Ren's TK, but to me tagging and surprising Vader a few times in the Bespin fight is a more impressive lightsaber battle performance than taking several hits from a possibly non-force sensitive Storm-trooper and losing a fight to an untrained force sensitive.

[The Drunkard Kid]

Luke did manage to tag Vader on the shoulder in the ESB duel, which I wouldn't say is nothing.
I'm not sure how Empire Luke would handle Ren's TK, but to me tagging and surprising Vader a few times in the Bespin fight is a more impressive lightsaber battle performance than taking several hits from a possibly non-force sensitive Storm-trooper and losing a fight to an untrained force sensitive.

Again, note that Kylo Ren had been shot in the gut by an extra-strong blaster bolt and had to stop and punch himself in the side repeatedly multiple times throughout his fight in order to keep the wound from immobilizing him, and had just given himself heavy psychological trauma right before he got shot. How well would Vader have done against Luke if he'd taken a blaster shot to the gut first, and had just relived the death of Padme as well?

[Jcogginsa]

Another neat Kylo Ren Feat happens in the beginning of the movie: He's shot at from behind. He turns, freezes both the blaster bolt and the shooter in place. The shot hangs in the air for the rest of the scene, before being unfrozen as Ren leaves