Rumbler's League Fall/Winter 2015 Week Three - Cleric of Hell's Brigade vs Dalak

[Tami]

Right. I mean, heck, what levels of Strange and Fate magic are we talking anyways? Hobo Fate? Defeated by the Hand Strange? Their levels differ quite a bit over the years, as does some of their spell work.

It would have to be the same as were current during the Amalgam Series.

[Dalak]

That's just it though, they don't.


Look at Super Soldier. The Captain America and Superman fusion. His feats are literally nowhere near Clark's. Especially his speed. Look at Iron Lantern too. Hardly close to a regular Ringslinger from DC.

The Amalgam characters can't have the same feats. Many are weaker.

I do understand the lemon thing Dalak, but at the same time, look at the League Store to further my point.

Super Soldier's serum is rated 6. According to the profile, it took Super Soldier AND another brick to place the Statue of Liberty back on its perch.

Post-Crisis Clark helps move the moon. Vastly, vastly stronger in general than his Amalgam counterpart.


We simply cannot give the Amalgam characters feats that they do not possess. They had their small comic run, we have to work off of that.

You use for example Super Soldier, the guy specifically weakened by Kryptonite Fallout who was only partly Kryptonian at best and I used the Lantern who's not using anywhere near the tech involved in the Rings to channel the Lantern power, whereas in Strangefate's case Xavier got the 'same' training that Stephen got and took over as the Supreme Lord of Order.

My point remains that due to lack of feats he was explicitly used for a Season at the power level I purchased him to use: a Strange-level magician with Xavier-level Psi. To just now hold him to only the feats he's displayed is pretty much a "You Lose" for me this whole season as the only Telepathy he showed was reading Access' mind once, and he has no offensive/defensive magic showings at all.

[Tami]

You use for example Super Soldier, the guy specifically weakened by Kryptonite Fallout who was only partly Kryptonian at best and I used the Lantern who's not using anywhere near the tech involved in the Rings to channel the Lantern power, whereas in Strangefate's case Xavier got the 'same' training that Stephen got and took over as the Supreme Lord of Order.

My point remains that due to lack of feats he was explicitly used for a Season at the power level I purchased him to use: a Strange-level magician with Xavier-level Psi. To just now hold him to only the feats he's displayed is pretty much a "You Lose" for me this whole season as the only Telepathy he showed was reading Access' mind once, and he has no offensive/defensive magic showings at all.

If we can say that his backstory is Xavier [same Xavier as in Marvel] with the same training Strange had, at the very least we have to consider what Xavier can do. SF may, possibly, not be as strong a magic user as Strange, but he should be at least as strong a psychic as Xavier.

[Sharkerbob]

You use for example Super Soldier, the guy specifically weakened by Kryptonite Fallout who was only partly Kryptonian at best and I used the Lantern who's not using anywhere near the tech involved in the Rings to channel the Lantern power, whereas in Strangefate's case Xavier got the 'same' training that Stephen got and took over as the Supreme Lord of Order.

Well, Super Soldier was honestly not much weakened by Green-K exposure versus his World War II era peak. However, you make a good point that he's got diluted, tinkered-with Kryptonian blood. But that does cement the point, the Amalgam characters have their own base. We don't know how good of training Xavier had. Presumably it would be similar to Strange or Fate, and there's nothing exactly contrary to that, given he just didn't use his powers much in his appearances. So, this leaves him a rather vague figure.

My point remains that due to lack of feats he was explicitly used for a Season at the power level I purchased him to use: a Strange-level magician with Xavier-level Psi. To just now hold him to only the feats he's displayed is pretty much a "You Lose" for me this whole season as the only Telepathy he showed was reading Access' mind once, and he has no offensive/defensive magic showings at all.

He did make custom Amalgams, as well. However, this is really the issue here. If he was used as a 10 previously, and now people are like, "No, fuck it, we're suddenly going to harp on his feats to say he's barely a 3", that seems a bit sketchy.

[Tami]

4e8629eb54b608752ccb87380712d7f0.jpg

Isn't he wearing the same magical outfit as Doctor Fate?

[Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh]

Well, at least not the ones where he got external powerups or the ones after the Amalgam comics. Of course with that Gauntlet on he's far more than he used to be so there's that. I figure the reason he jobbed to Strange so much at the end was that we was running on 1/3rd of his normal levels thanks to only having Strange there and using much energy on fusions, but that's purely conjecture. It also makes sense to me that Strange would have more control over his power than any outsider, even if that guy is part him.

There's really no reason to assume he gets pre-Amalgam feats outside of Strange's standard spell-casting, either. The backstories incorporate bits and pieces of existing characters, but they're their own entities, and power ups notwithstanding Him invoking the powers that be (Vishanti) etc, for magic, should be beyond him unless they're mentioned in the backstory for the character. Or the Crimson Bands/auto shielding, or anything that required Strange to invoke anything other than his own power.

I'm not knocking his potency, Strange admitted the guy was powerful, but when the guy had to steal 616 Strange's magic in order to be a threat again, it says something.

Still, this doesn't have much impact on this match so is there anything you need clarification/convincing on for that?

Eh, it's not an issue, or at least one I see completely flipping the fight should it come to it.

[Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh]

4e8629eb54b608752ccb87380712d7f0.jpg

Isn't he wearing the same magical outfit as Doctor Fate?

He's wearing Strange's cape.

[Sharkerbob]

4e8629eb54b608752ccb87380712d7f0.jpg

Isn't he wearing the same magical outfit as Doctor Fate?

Different universe. It's not literally the same objects, it just looks like them. I would presume they function similarly. The Eye was used to probe Access for special universal keys, similar to how the Marvel eye might uncover information about other objects. So, make of that what you will.

Dark Claw's adamantium claws have little bat-shaped divuts in the blades. Super Soldier's Shield is basically Cap's shield, but it's shaped like the Superman Symbol. Spider-Boy uses a handgun that shoots webs instead of web-shooters. I know that seems like piddling evidence, but it shows things in Amalgam are not the exact same as in Marvel or DC. They may have the same functions, mind, but they are their own objects.

[Estrecca]

He did make custom Amalgams, as well. However, this is really the issue here. If he was used as a 10 previously, and now people are like, "No, fuck it, we're suddenly going to harp on his feats to say he's barely a 3", that seems a bit sketchy.

For what it might be worth, I don't think that I ever used him for Xavier scale telepathy and if I did, then that was a total bluff. He has telepathy and enough willpower to throw down with Strange in a contest of wills, both of which is respectable, but looking at my old team, I had a boosted Rachel Summers, I had a telepathic Naruto and I had the Eradicator, so I don't think that he was ever meant to be one of my TP powerhouses.

[Cleric of Hell’s Brigade]

Yes, it is bull crap, Sharker.

But so is having a baseline 8 character (Xavier) and having two 9/10 point magics attached to him without proving he can use said magics at that level.

And that's before giving him any items, either.

[Sharkerbob]

Well, maybe he needs to be dropped from the League after this season, then. He's either too powerful if used as the concept implies, or he's too vague to nail down from his few solid feats.

[Cleric of Hell’s Brigade]

Mind you, this entire argument is important because, as I argue, without the feats to stop the time stop, Max's move happens and a lot goes in my teams favor at that point.


Really, the only sticking point Dalak has is Tom Servo at the moment. He has no response to Bazil and Fighter going down, and without explicit feats for Strangefate, I don't see how he's not taken out either.

[Dalak]

There's really no reason to assume he gets pre-Amalgam feats outside of Strange's standard spell-casting, either. The backstories incorporate bits and pieces of existing characters, but they're their own entities, and power ups notwithstanding Him invoking the powers that be (Vishanti) etc, for magic, should be beyond him unless they're mentioned in the backstory for the character. Or the Crimson Bands/auto shielding, or anything that required Strange to invoke anything other than his own power.

I'm not knocking his potency, Strange admitted the guy was powerful, but when the guy had to steal 616 Strange's magic in order to be a threat again, it says something.

Well the guy did survive where every other amalgam without their components disappeared, that says something too.

Still you bring up a valid point any 'Vishanti' he had are dead and not the standard ones so he wouldn't be able to call on them.

For what it might be worth, I don't think that I ever used him for Xavier scale telepathy and if I did, then that was a total bluff. He has telepathy and enough willpower to throw down with Strange in a contest of wills, both of which is respectable, but looking at my old team, I had a boosted Rachel Summers, I had a telepathic Naruto and I had the Eradicator, so I don't think that he was ever meant to be one of my TP powerhouses.

Well he's got some at the least, so with Banshee and Gauntlet he's got something even if cut to nothing but his own feats. Still, I don't think anyone was trying to say your use of Strangefate had no magic to speak of or was limited to just what he'd showed.

Yes, it is bull crap, Sharker.

But so is having a baseline 8 character (Xavier) and having two 9/10 point magics attached to him without proving he can use said magics at that level.

And that's before giving him any items, either.

Those items are what saves the day in the worst case, but I'm only using him as he's explicitly been used before so what's your excuse for the crap?

Mind you, this entire argument is important because, as I argue, without the feats to stop the time stop, Max's move happens and a lot goes in my teams favor at that point.


Really, the only sticking point Dalak has is Tom Servo at the moment. He has no response to Bazil and Fighter going down, and without explicit feats for Strangefate, I don't see how he's not taken out either.

Actually thanks to the items he can still TK the brains out of Maxima and Magneto. Banshee mixed in with the power magnification of the Gauntlet will let him TK 2 brains with Space Whale speed. He has TP due to his own feats so you can't count that out.

Thus Max's Time Stop fails, and the Luck which operates at longer range than you've said and Doomgiver will assure that.

[Cleric of Hell’s Brigade]

Well the guy did survive where every other amalgam without their components disappeared, that says something too.

Still you bring up a valid point any 'Vishanti' he had are dead and not the standard ones so he wouldn't be able to call on them.



Well he's got some at the least, so with Banshee and Gauntlet he's got something even if cut to nothing but his own feats. Still, I don't think anyone was trying to say your use of Strangefate had no magic to speak of or was limited to just what he'd showed.



Those items are what saves the day in the worst case, but I'm only using him as he's explicitly been used before so what's your excuse for the crap?



Actually thanks to the items he can still TK the brains out of Maxima and Magneto. Banshee mixed in with the power magnification of the Gauntlet will let him TK 2 brains with Space Whale speed. He has TP due to his own feats so you can't count that out.

Thus Max's Time Stop fails, and the Luck which operates at longer range than you've said and Doomgiver will assure that.

But in contrast, the Rabbit's foot only worked with Dean and Sam in a same room instance. Dean being able to beat those guys as they comically took themselves out, etc.....

Perhaps they Foot worked over a longer distance because they had an image of Sam or it had a connection to him as a previous user.


The TK thing is an issue, but again, can he target people at speed with it is the issue. I fully acknowledge he can do it if they were standing still, but can he do it (locate/target them) while they are on the move?

My issue with Strangefate is partially my fault for not looking closer at the character. I'm not mad at you, or the fact he's in the League, I'm mad at myself for not paying closer attention and not bringing this issue up earlier. Sorry if I got a bit hot there.

But in contrast, one of the last times I used the Subtle Knife (many Leagues ago) I used it for half the League incorrectly and got smashed in a fight against a duo (can't recall who, but they had Prairie Ghost and Super Ragman on their team) when they pointed out the Knife did not work the way I'd been using it. I wasn't hand waved the way I had been using it, or the way it had been used by others, and I was stuck with a weapon that wasn't as useful as I thought. It sucks but it does happen sometimes.


I don't know man, it's kind of unfair both ways isn't it? Your character doesn't have to use feats from his own run, but gets feats from two other ubers? But then you get screwed out of an uber powerful magic user and get stuck with a somewhat powerful magic user.

[Tami]

I am very much 50-50 on this match. I'd vote for both if I could. Maybe by morning I'll decide.