Star Wars 7 - The Spoilers Awaken :)

[JaggedFel]

I say the fate of the Jedi was inevitable they spent 1000 Generations without serious opposition and Yoda was in charge for centuries it seems so arrogance and bureaucracy are natural see the path of the Catholic Church.

[simbob4000]

The Jedi made no wrong choices in the movies, made no bad decisions. They were outmaneuvered into having only the best of bad choices presented, and they made the best they could. If you want to call that a flaw, I'll concede the point rather than argue about it.

Really? This was the group that trained Anakin, even though they explicitly had reservations about him. They can't imagine that a Jedi would do something wrong in Attack of the Clones. They're so full of themselves that when Obi-Wan can't find information in the Jedi Archives he's told that it can't exist if it can't be found there. Such hubris on the Jedi's part is a flaw with the Jedi, and the Jedi know their power is waning as this is happening. The prequels are like watching the Jedi exclusively making bad decisions.

The movies are also so terribly written that you don't get any idea of the Palpatine's master stoke. That doesn't really make the Jedi less flawed, because the movies are still telling you they're flawed with stuff like the Library scene, but the bad writing makes them come off as total morons on top of that.

[Lorendiac]

As for being back where we started - yes, that's kind of the point of The Force Awakens - it aims to retell the first three movies, with a bit of the prequels thrown in. That was hammered home in scene after un-original scene.

You surprise me a bit. When I watched that movie, a month ago, I very much got the feeling it was rehashing the original "Star Wars" movie (Episode 4) all over again. But I didn't get the strong impression that it was also trying to retell several of the major plot points of "The Empire Strikes Back" and "The Return of the Jedi." Can you be more specific about which parts of those two movies you had in mind?

[simbob4000]

You surprise me a bit. When I watched that movie, a month ago, I very much got the feeling it was rehashing the original "Star Wars" movie (Episode 4) all over again. But I didn't get the strong impression that it was also trying to retell several of the major plot points of "The Empire Strikes Back" and "The Return of the Jedi." Can you be more specific about which parts of those two movies you had in mind?

That's because it wasn't trying to retell the other two movies, it's just Star Wars, as in the original movie. I guess the non-reveal of Ren being Han and Leia's son is a twist on the actual reveal of Vader being Luke's father, but the movie doesn't play it like a moment, it's just something that's said. It's just a badly paced remake of Star Wars with added fat and zero conflict, where the cantina scene kind of happens twice, and the middle of the movie where Vader kills Obi-Wan has been moved to the end to happen with the new bigger Death Star being blown up.

[David Walton]

The Jedi did come across poorly in the prequels, and I'll never understand why they forbid those in their order to marry when Force sensitivity is a genetic trait.

[AJBopp]

You surprise me a bit. When I watched that movie, a month ago, I very much got the feeling it was rehashing the original "Star Wars" movie (Episode 4) all over again. But I didn't get the strong impression that it was also trying to retell several of the major plot points of "The Empire Strikes Back" and "The Return of the Jedi." Can you be more specific about which parts of those two movies you had in mind?

Scenes like the mentoring of the villain by a holographic ruler, and the revelation that the villain was a major player's close relation were not introduced until the later movies. There were sprinkles of that kind of thing throughout TFA

[ChrisIII]

Plus the mission to lower the shield is a bit ROTJish, although I suppose one could compare it to Obi-Wan depowering the tractor beam in ANH as well, or the TPM tactic of taking down the ship to deactivate the droid army.

There's actually a deleted scene in AOTC where they basically try the same thing (except the ships are on the ground this time) but it doesn't work because they learned from TPM's ending.

[simbob4000]

Scenes like the mentoring of the villain by a holographic ruler, and the revelation that the villain was a major player's close relation were not introduced until the later movies. There were sprinkles of that kind of thing throughout TFA

People talk to each other in Star Wars by way of hologram, talking to each other by hologram is just a Star Wars thing. Ren being related to Han and Leia isn't a revelation, it's just something they say and move on from. It's not this big kind of moment like Vader in Empire, it's not even really a moment...it could have been, it could be a big reveal that the movie was building up to, but it's now. I think that hologram moment comes more from wanting a scene where it looks like the big boss villain is a giant, which could just be seen as a play on stuff like how when Leia is a hologram in the first movie she just looks like a little tiny person.

[AJBopp]

People talk to each other in Star Wars by way of hologram, talking to each other by hologram is just a Star Wars thing. Ren being related to Han and Leia isn't a revelation, it's just something they say and move on from. It's not this big kind of moment like Vader in Empire, it's not even really a moment...it could have been, it could be a big reveal that the movie was building up to, but it's now. I think that hologram moment comes more from wanting a scene where it looks like the big boss villain is a giant, which could just be seen as a play on stuff like how when Leia is a hologram in the first movie she just looks like a little tiny person.

The hologram is hardly the take away from the Kylo/Big Villain thing. Kylo's relationship to Han and Leia was a revelation, it was just revealed sooner.

[byrd156]

The Jedi did come across poorly in the prequels, and I'll never understand why they forbid those in their order to marry when Force sensitivity is a genetic trait.

It isn't actually genetic, sometimes the children of Jedi are force-senstive sometimes they aren't.

[simbob4000]

The hologram is hardly the take away from the Kylo/Big Villain thing. Kylo's relationship to Han and Leia was a revelation, it was just revealed sooner.

It's not a revelation, it's a complete non-revelation, it's just a thing that's stated. It's not a big reveal moment, they just say the relationship between those three characters and the movie moves on. It could have been a big reveal, this one movie could have built up to the moment where that relationship is revealed, but that isn't what the movie is doing. The only Kylo Ren revelation in the whole movie is when he takes his mask off and he has a normal face, and that's really only going to feel like a reveal if you know what Vader looks like. The only two reveal moments in the whole movie might be that Kylo Ren's face is nice looking, and that Snoke was't just a giant sitting right in front of the two bad guys.

I don't know what you mean by "The hologram is hardly the take away from the Kylo/Big Villain thing". You said before "Scenes like the mentoring of the villain by a holographic ruler". You were saying that scene is a callback to Vader and the Emperor communicating by way of hologram scene from Empire...but that's how people talk to each other in Star Wars. Leia does that in Star Wars too, that's how people talk to each other in the Star Wars Universe. Two heroes got a message from a hologram of a tiny person telling them what to do in Star Wars; two villains talked to a giant hologram which told them what to do, in The Force Awakens. The only thing that's really Empire about it is that it's seemingly a new Emperor type character. But then giving the villain an Obi-Wan isn't really going outside the original movie.

[AJBopp]

It's not a revelation, it's a complete non-revelation, it's just a thing that's stated.

I don't know what you mean by "The hologram is hardly the take away from the Kylo/Big Villain thing". You said before "Scenes like the mentoring of the villain by a holographic ruler".

I don't think you understand what revelation means. And the takeaway is not the hologram, it's the mentoring.

[simbob4000]

I don't think you understand what revelation means. And the takeaway is not the hologram, it's the mentoring.

I know you don't know what it means if you think that was a revelation. It's not a revelation, it's not some big moment that's meant to shock or surprise, it's just something that's stated. It's treated as a complete non-revelation by the movie, the movie just gives you that information and goes along like we already all knew that already. It's a complete non-event. I've seen people say how they loved that the movie doesn't make it a moment, I guess these people like nothing over something, but you're maybe the only person I've seen call it a revelation. Just to be clear, simply being given information is not a revelation.

It's the mentoring of someone by way of hologram. But mentoring is in the first Star Wars too.