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  1. #391
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    Quote Originally Posted by PretenderNX01 View Post
    And yet he's the one who suddenly uses The Force to blow up the Death Star and save the day despite being owned the whole movie prior to that.


    So she's already skilled thanks to surviving life on Jakku and The Force just enhances that.
    Using the force to hit a target manually (which he indicates he used to do a mock version all the time on Tattoine) in one instance is a little different than beating the Sitg equivalent to a Jedi Knight in training(IE: Obi Wan in episode 1)

  2. #392
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    Quote Originally Posted by lancerman View Post
    Using the force to hit a target manually (which he indicates he used to do a mock version all the time on Tattoine) in one instance is a little different than beating the Sitg equivalent to a Jedi Knight in training(IE: Obi Wan in episode 1)
    Not if he is suffering from massive internal injuries from being shot with a high velocity explosive round.

    By the time Rey gets into the fight Kylo looks like he is in worse shape that Luke just before his hand was cut off. Plus if she learned the mind trick from reversing his probe, who knows what else she learned. Again, the movie literally TELLS us she is getting more powerful as time passes. Kylo clearly understands what's going on and spells it out.

    The only thing he doesn't do is to break the fourth wall, look straight out into the audience and tell you "Guys, she sucked information about how to use the Force out of my head."

    But clearly that is what some people would have preferred.
    Last edited by brettc1; 12-22-2015 at 06:40 AM.
    If ten years of recording The Young and the Restless for my mother have taught me anything, it's that characters in serial dramas are always happily in love...until they're not

    “The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. Instead of altering their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit their views...which can be very uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that needs altering.” - the 4th Doctor

  3. #393
    Astonishing Member David Walton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrNewGod View Post
    You are correct that Obi-Wan didn't flinch at lethal, or even merely mutilating violence. Neither did Mace nor Yoda. However, that's not what falling to the Dark Side means for a Jedi. It means having their intent and acts stem from fear, anger, hatred, jealousy, selfishness and/or other negatively passionate motives, rather than seeking serenity and acting from unselfish purposes. Lucas wasn't very specific about it in ANH, but was quite consistent on this difference between the Jedi and the Sith from TESB through the rest of his films.

    We interpret this very differently; Luke was quite completely susceptible to corruption and came very close to falling to the Dark Side in his final confrontation with Darth Vader. Vader provoked him into acting from fear and anger, and boiling with rage, Luke went to the very brink. My interpretation was that it was only the sight of his father severed cybernetic limb - eerily similar to Luke's own prosthesis - that shocked Luke into enough of a pause that he realized how close he was to becoming the very thing that he'd only moments before attempted to furiously kill. A very narrow thing.
    On further review, I think you and Punisher 007 are correct, Luke was close to giving in to the Dark Side.

    I guess the only real issue I take with the execution in ROTJ is that I don't think Luke would have joined the Emperor just because he killed his father. But ultimately, Luke would have been killed if he hadn't spared his father's life, and the Rebellion would have failed.

    So I don't think Luke would have become evil, but I do think the Dark Side would have gotten what it wanted, if that makes sense.

    It's basically the same message given in ANH when Luke took the X-Wing's targeting system down: he had to trust his instincts. Vader was redeemable, Palpatine wasn't.

    So good call on both your parts.
    Last edited by David Walton; 12-22-2015 at 06:40 AM.

  4. #394
    Astonishing Member David Walton's Avatar
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    I think the Kylo Ren/ Han Solo scene is the boldest, most brilliant thing that Star Wars has ever pulled off.

    You feel Han's death even more than Ben Kenobi's, because you've had four films and over thirty years to get attached to the character.

    Also, not only is it patricide, but Kylo Ren essentially begs Han Solo to kill him. And when Han can't, he sees Han as the embodiment of the personal 'weakness' he despises in himself.

    I wonder if they'll flip the script on the OT and have Kylo Ren be irredeemable. Either way, Solo's death is the thing that makes you believe almost anything could happen.

  5. #395
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrNewGod View Post
    You are correct that Obi-Wan didn't flinch at lethal, or even merely mutilating violence. Neither did Mace nor Yoda. However, that's not what falling to the Dark Side means for a Jedi. It means having their intent and acts stem from fear, anger, hatred, jealousy, selfishness and/or other negatively passionate motives, rather than seeking serenity and acting from unselfish purposes. Lucas wasn't very specific about it in ANH, but was quite consistent on this difference between the Jedi and the Sith from TESB through the rest of his films.

    We interpret this very differently; Luke was quite completely susceptible to corruption and came very close to falling to the Dark Side in his final confrontation with Darth Vader. Vader provoked him into acting from fear and anger, and boiling with rage, Luke went to the very brink. My interpretation was that it was only the sight of his father severed cybernetic limb - eerily similar to Luke's own prosthesis - that shocked Luke into enough of a pause that he realized how close he was to becoming the very thing that he'd only moments before attempted to furiously kill. A very narrow thing.
    Yes - the novelization makes it quite clear that Luke is teetering on the abyss in that moment. Lucas said in interviews at the time he had to search for something that could take Luke to the very edge of losing himself to the Dark Side, and realized of course it would be a threat to Leia.

    The book also spells out what was strongly hinted at in the second movie - that Vader had his own agenda of killing the Emperor and replacing him with Luke at his side. He believes he is playing Palpatine, not realizing that Palpatine has recognized Luke's greater power and is in fact planning on getting rid of Vader himself in exchange for a more worthy apprentice.
    If ten years of recording The Young and the Restless for my mother have taught me anything, it's that characters in serial dramas are always happily in love...until they're not

    “The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. Instead of altering their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit their views...which can be very uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that needs altering.” - the 4th Doctor

  6. #396
    Astonishing Member David Walton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    Yes - the novelization makes it quite clear that Luke is teetering on the abyss in that moment. Lucas said in interviews at the time he had to search for something that could take Luke to the very edge of losing himself to the Dark Side, and realized of course it would be a threat to Leia.

    The book also spells out what was strongly hinted at in the second movie - that Vader had his own agenda of killing the Emperor and replacing him with Luke at his side. He believes he is playing Palpatine, not realizing that Palpatine has recognized Luke's greater power and is in fact planning on getting rid of Vader himself in exchange for a more worthy apprentice.
    The one thing I'd never buy is that Luke would serve the Emperor. If he had failed in ROTJ, it would have been because Vader wasn't there to save him in the end. He'd have died a very foolish death at the hands of Palpatine and the Rebellion would have been toast. But he hated Palpatine far too much to serve him.

  7. #397
    Original CBR member Jabare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    And never taught him more than how to hit something with his eyes closed. Show me where we even see Kenobi use telekinesis in ANH, much less teach it to anybody?
    he opened his mind to the force. Even speaking to him after he was dead. Idk if he taught him or not but he atlas instructed him opening his mind to all the possibilities and the force.

    Rey apparently doesn't need a master.
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  8. #398
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Walton View Post
    The one thing I'd never buy is that Luke would serve the Emperor. If he had failed in ROTJ, it would have been because Vader wasn't there to save him in the end. He'd have died a very foolish death at the hands of Palpatine and the Rebellion would have been toast. But he hated Palpatine far too much to serve him.
    I don't know it, but I suspect Sidious saw Luke's killing Vader only as step one of Luke's recruitment and training. In time, having already corrupted Luke, he figured he could get Luke to ally with him in order to complete his training. Remember, Sidious didn't try to enlist Anakin right after Dooku's execution either.

    That's something that hasn't been done enough in the canon (ignoring EU): exploring personal relationships within the Sith pairs. Count Dooku's attempt to recruit Obi-Wan suggest to me that is a constant, Darwinian chess match between master and apprentice. With each trying to find a new apprentice for themselves, so the apprentice may determine if they're ready to supplant the master, or the master may determine if the apprentice is still worthy of holding his place.

  9. #399
    Astonishing Member David Walton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrNewGod View Post
    I don't know it, but I suspect Sidious saw Luke's killing Vader only as step one of Luke's recruitment and training. In time, having already corrupted Luke, he figured he could get Luke to ally with him in order to complete his training. Remember, Sidious didn't try to enlist Anakin right after Dooku's execution either.

    That's something that hasn't been done enough in the canon (ignoring EU): exploring personal relationships within the Sith pairs. Count Dooku's attempt to recruit Obi-Wan suggest to me that is a constant, Darwinian chess match between master and apprentice. With each trying to find a new apprentice for themselves, so the apprentice may determine if they're ready to supplant the master, or the master may determine if the apprentice is still worthy of holding his place.
    That's the explanation that makes the most sense, so thanks for putting that scene in a new light for me.

    Interestingly, Anakin's fall is the inverse of that scenario: his pity for Palpatine leads him to attack the Jedi when he should have killed him.

    I am actually kind of eager to see if they break the Sith tradition and we end up with larger groups of dark Jedi working together again. I don't know if it would happen by Ep IX, but I suspect they'll eventually get to something closer to the Old Republic era as they continue churning the films out. It would be fun to see all kinds of Force users running around with different motivations, and not just 'the one' types.
    Last edited by David Walton; 12-22-2015 at 07:56 AM.

  10. #400
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Walton View Post
    That's the explanation that makes the most sense, so thanks for putting that scene in a new light for me.


    Quote Originally Posted by David Walton View Post
    Interestingly, Anakin's fall is the inverse of that scenario: his pity for Palpatine leads him to attack the Jedi when he should have killed him.
    I interpreted it less as pity than as selfishness and avarice. Even knowing how dangerous and treacherous Darth Sidious was, Sidious had something Anakin wanted (a means of saving Padme), and he wanted it badly enough that he was willing to mutilate a Jedi, without care for the immediate or wider consequences.

    Quote Originally Posted by David Walton View Post
    I am actually kind of eager to see if they break the Sith tradition and we end up with larger groups of dark Jedi working together again. I don't know if it would happen by Ep IX, but I suspect they'll eventually get to something closer to the Old Republic era as they continue churning the films out. It would be fun to see all kinds of Force users running around with different motivations, and not just 'the one' types.
    It's an interesting thought. If the Knights of Ren reach the Force through the Dark Side, it would seem like their own passions would make organization in large numbers unsustainable. Soon or later, anger, jealousy, or greed would wreck their cooperation.

    Guess we'll have to wait and see.

  11. #401
    Astonishing Member David Walton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrNewGod View Post
    It's an interesting thought. If the Knights of Ren reach the Force through the Dark Side, it would seem like their own passions would make organization in large numbers unsustainable. Soon or later, anger, jealousy, or greed would wreck their cooperation.
    Eventually, sure. But that doesn't mean they'd be any less dangerous until things fell apart--maybe more so. Historically, there have been evil people with varying degrees of ambition who have managed to work together toward a common goal. There have also been evil figures who were slavishly devoted to even larger evil figures. I think it would put an interesting wrinkle in things if you ever had a Dark Side user whose devotion to his master was genuine. It wouldn't mean he wasn't evil--just that his or her loyalty was misplaced.

    I'd also be interested in seeing Force users who aren't interested in ruling or saving the galaxy. Maybe they just want to make some extra money and kick ass in bar fights, you know?

    And I imagine we will see some more variations as the SW universe inevitably gets bigger and bigger.

    I predict that this trilogy will end with Luke re-starting the Jedi Order, thus setting things in motion for a much bigger sandbox.

  12. #402
    Astonishing Member David Walton's Avatar
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    On another note, I'm still fascinated by criticisms that Finn doesn't get enough moments in this film. The 'man on the street' guy who escapes a Star Destroyer, finds the resolve to fight impossible odds, and makes a decent showing with a lightsaber in spite of not being Force sensitive.

    And the serials/pulp fiction that SW was inspired by had the heroes getting their asses kicked all over the place, often escaping by sheer luck. As much of a badass as Conan the Barbarian is, there are several stories where some kind of supernatural or human intervention keeps him from getting killed.

    But going by how many people perceive Finn, I guess John McClane wouldn't live up to their standards in the first three Die Hard films, either.

  13. #403
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buried Alien View Post
    I keep getting the sense that Han was a little rusty at the Falcon's controls because it had been years and years since he'd last piloted her, and moreover, the intervening owners had made a few changes with which he was unfamiliar. Rey, being of a younger generation, was probably more up to speed on current technology than aging Captain Solo.

    Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)
    Actually, from the dialogue, it seems clear that Rey actually was helping in maintenance on the Falcon; she knew a compressor was added in a misguided effort to improve performance. Nothing that much to do with supernatural skills...

  14. #404
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Walton View Post
    On another note, I'm still fascinated by criticisms that Finn doesn't get enough moments in this film. The 'man on the street' guy who escapes a Star Destroyer, finds the resolve to fight impossible odds, and makes a decent showing with a lightsaber in spite of not being Force sensitive.

    And the serials/pulp fiction that SW was inspired by had the heroes getting their asses kicked all over the place, often escaping by sheer luck. As much of a badass as Conan the Barbarian is, there are several stories where some kind of supernatural or human intervention keeps him from getting killed.

    But going by how many people perceive Finn, I guess John McClane wouldn't live up to their standards in the first three Die Hard films, either.
    Oh, seriously. Some are calling him a failed hero and neutered.

    But...guys? He may have lost a few physical confrontations...but he won a few. And he won BIG in three areas: defecting, rescuing Poe Dameron and delivering the map to the Resistance. All without getting folks on his side killed or seriously injured

    That'd be enough for the main character in other series. Like you said, he and John McClane could be drinking all night matching feats....

  15. #405
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    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    And never taught him more than how to hit something with his eyes closed. Show me where we even see Kenobi use telekinesis in ANH, much less teach it to anybody?
    I think Obi's Force Ghost trained him in between films. It seemed heavily implied throughout Empire.
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