Star Wars 7 - The Spoilers Awaken :)

[LoneNecromancer]

After seeing the movie again and going back to the OT. I still have trouble believing something like that mostly because of this:

Luke has already been down the fear of turning to the darkside road. If being in the same room as freakin Darth Sidious didn't turn him, then I don't think anything will. And he's already shown that now and forever he will always be a Jedi.

We don't know why he's been hiding and so I hope the writers don't suggest it was because of fear of turning. I hope it's something else. I'll take anything other than fear of turning.

I don't know what reasoning they're going to use for Luke, but I don't really think anything can really salvage him, whether it's fear of turning, whether he thinks he failed and thinks that Force users should just die out and not be trained anymore, or whatever. They've still turned him into the coward who wouldn't clean up his mess, yet another Jedi who just ran away and hid.

The weird thing is how pointless Rey beating Kylo even was. They could have just had him win, that giant chasm opening up to save her, and then after that she goes off to train with Luke. That would make Kylo seem like more of a threat for later movies, give the movie someplace to go; I meant, is anyone wondering how a showdown between him and a trained Rey will turn out? Oh, round 2, but now she really knows how to use her powers.

They could have had her trying to use Force powers, and kind of being able to do things, but them not quite working. Rey trying to do a Jedi Mind Trick on a Stormtrooper and the Stormtrooper almost doing what she tells him before putting his hand on his head like he's got a headache, shaking his head, and maybe knocking her out and leaving; it would still show she could use the Force, it would still be impressive given this movie hasn't told use she's had any training at all, it would give her more of a place to go in the next movie, and it wouldn't seem as stupid as just outright being so powerful. I'm really not sure there's anything they could do with Rey beside killing her in the opening of the next movie that would feel like a surprise. It's really funny how stupid making her all powerful really was.

I wouldn't be surprised if Luke was originally supposed to confirm that Rey was his daughter at the end of the film, and then they just suddenly realised "hold on, we now have no hook for Rey's character in the sequel since she's already using the Force and winning lightsaber fights so her getting trained as Jedi won't really mean anything. Uh, let's still keep it a mystery as to who she is" and so they edited out Hamill's lines and had them stare at each other.

[David Walton]

I don't know what reasoning they're going to use for Luke, but I don't really think anything can really salvage him, whether it's fear of turning, whether he thinks he failed and thinks that Force users should just die out and not be trained anymore, or whatever. They've still turned him into the coward who wouldn't clean up his mess, yet another Jedi who just ran away and hid.

Well, the implication is that Luke is seeking out something in the first Jedi Temple that will help him bring balance to the Force again. So I don't think it's mere cowardice, just an acknowledgement that he wasn't yet equipped to handle Snoke. Remember in ESB part of his problem is that he rushes to Bespin before his training is complete, and in doing so creates more problems. Now we've got an older, wiser Luke who's willing to seek the help he needs in the religion he adheres to.

And you have to cut the guy some slack in the sense that he feels like he failed his sister, his best friend, and their child. That's a pretty overwhelming blow to your confidence.

I wouldn't be surprised if Luke was originally supposed to confirm that Rey was his daughter at the end of the film, and then they just suddenly realised "hold on, we now have no hook for Rey's character in the sequel since she's already using the Force and winning lightsaber fights so her getting trained as Jedi won't really mean anything. Uh, let's still keep it a mystery as to who she is" and so they edited out Hamill's lines and had them stare at each other.

Hard to say, but I prefer not to look at those kinds of decision cynically. If they wanted a bigger hook for Ep VIII, good for them, it's part of the storytelling process.

For my own part, I think TFA is the best of the entire series, and I'm optimistic that VIII will top it.

[AJBopp]

I don't know what reasoning they're going to use for Luke, but I don't really think anything can really salvage him, whether it's fear of turning, whether he thinks he failed and thinks that Force users should just die out and not be trained anymore, or whatever. They've still turned him into the coward who wouldn't clean up his mess, yet another Jedi who just ran away and hid.

What we know:

Luke prepared the means to locate him, breaking up the map and storing it in two different locations.
R2 was in a deep sleep since just after Luke left, and nothing could wake him.
R2 woke up after two critical event occurred, one of which was probably the cause of his waking:
- One of Luke's closest friends died.
- Rey became aware she had the Force.

It can be reasonably presumed that Luke somehow instructed R2 to wake up after one of these two things happened (though how he became aware of Rey's awareness we don't yet).

In any case, I think things are going exactly as Luke planned for now. Saying he can't be redeemed is like saying Yoda and Obiwan can't be redeemed after Episode III.

[lorddominicus85]

I've seen the movie twice and I'm still not sure what some people's problem with the final battle was. Before Rey battles Ren he is mortally wounded with a blaster bolt from Chewies cross bow, a weapon we were shown two other times in the movie completely slaughter anyone shot with it. Han sent a stormtrooper flying with a direct hit and killed a small group of troopers with one shot. Ren took that same weapon to the gut, without serious medical attention he probably would of died from the wound, not to mention the amount of blood they showed him losing at the start of the battle with him cradling the wound. He was far from 100% at the start of his battle with Rey and was clearly taken by surprise when she showed off her strength with the force. Ren was coming at her at best at 65% capacity, hurt and bleeding out and surprised by how strong she actually was. And let's not forget we are also shown quite early in the movie that Rey is well versed in melee combat when she beats up a group of people trying to steal bb on Jakku so it's reasonable to assume that she's been fighting for her life for the last ten years on that planet and not a no nothing novice when she entered that battle with Ren.

What I go back to over and over again in my mind is something I read in an interview with JJ, Kylo Ren is not a fully formed villain at the start of this movie, his training isn't complete and he still feels the pull of the light. He is very much not Darth Vader who when we are first introduced to him is a master of the force, a full sith lord and feels nothing of the light anymore. JJ said in an interview that he wanted to show the origin of a villain, the growth of a villain, how someone could go from being a jedi to a sith, essentially he wanted to take Anakin's journey from the prequels and actually tell it well, which I think he did. Ren, despite his seeming control of the force is very inexperienced, very un trained, he's full of potential but hasn't yet completely embraced the dark side of the force. When he encounter Rey, perhaps the only person he's ever encountered as powerful as he is in the force, he isn't fully committed to being a dark lord, even after he kills his own father.

I feel like for me this movie has presented us with a very interesting journey. Where does Ren go from here, what will his training consist of with Snoake and the previous two trilogies are any implication then we know he will be getting some sort of revenge for the loss he suffered in this movie.

And I'd like to point out that at the end of ANH Darth Vader is effectively defeated in combat over the Death Star and left for dead by a kid who has never set foot off planet let alone fly an x wing fighter and participate in a dog fight. So it's not as if Ren coming up on the losing end of this first encounter is some unprecedented maneuver in the star wars universe, Menace ended with a pretty decisive win for the good guys, ANH ended with an extremely decisive win in case there weren't anymore movied and TFA ended with a decisive win for the good guys. This movie is following the same ground work from the previous chapter ones in the two existing trilogies.

[LoneNecromancer]

Well, the implication is that Luke is seeking out something in the first Jedi Temple that will help him bring balance to the Force again. So I don't think it's mere cowardice, just an acknowledgement that he wasn't yet equipped to handle Snoke. Remember in ESB part of his problem is that he rushes to Bespin before his training is complete, and in doing so creates more problems. Now we've got an older, wiser Luke who's willing to seek the help he needs in the religion he adheres to.

And you have to cut the guy some slack in the sense that he feels like he failed his sister, his best friend, and their child. That's a pretty overwhelming blow to your confidence.

He got his arm cut off, but if he hadn't come at all chances were Han and Leia would've been tortured further, potentially to death, to keep trying to lure him out. Or without Vader's fixation on him there might not have been enough of a distraction that Leia could've escaped.

Yoda and Obi-Wan weren't always right. Luke even called them on not revealing his parentage to begin with.

What we know:

Luke prepared the means to locate him, breaking up the map and storing it in two different locations.
R2 was in a deep sleep since just after Luke left, and nothing could wake him.
R2 woke up after two critical event occurred, one of which was probably the cause of his waking:
- One of Luke's closest friends died.
- Rey became aware she had the Force.

It can be reasonably presumed that Luke somehow instructed R2 to wake up after one of these two things happened (though how he became aware of Rey's awareness we don't yet).

In any case, I think things are going exactly as Luke planned for now. Saying he can't be redeemed is like saying Yoda and Obiwan can't be redeemed after Episode III.

Yoda and Obi-Wan were part of the old flawed Jedi Order. Luke was supposed to be the new generation, learning from the mistakes of the past to create a new and better Jedi Order. Instead his nephew turned to the Dark Side and wiped out his new school, and Luke running away to do whatever also means that the Republic just got wiped out, making everything he fought for in the OT pointless considering we're back where we started with a small ragtag rebellion up against a big empire -ruled by a shadowy space wizard figure and his black knight- that just had its planet-destroying weapon blown up.

If this was Luke's plan it's not a great one, considering it hinged on the destruction of, what four/five planets?

[LoneNecromancer]

And let's not forget we are also shown quite early in the movie that Rey is well versed in melee combat when she beats up a group of people trying to steal bb on Jakku so it's reasonable to assume that she's been fighting for her life for the last ten years on that planet and not a no nothing novice when she entered that battle with Ren.

Using a sword is a bit different to a staff, especially when you're supposedly going up against someone who's actually been trained in how to use it and has been using his for years.

When he encounter Rey, perhaps the only person he's ever encountered as powerful as he is in the force, he isn't fully committed to being a dark lord, even after he kills his own father.

There's nothing in the movie that suggests he's not fully committed after he kills Han.

And I'd like to point out that at the end of ANH Darth Vader is effectively defeated in combat over the Death Star and left for dead by a kid who has never set foot off planet let alone fly an x wing fighter and participate in a dog fight.

No, he isn't. Han is the one who blows up a TIE fighter next to Vader that sends him spinning away.

[ChrisIII]

Maybe it's like the Fate of the Jedi series a bit, where the chief of state effectively 'fires' Luke and forces him into exile because his nephew (in that case, Jacen Solo/Darth Caedus) had a similar fate to Ben/Kylo.

It's been stated that although the old EU is no longer really canon, certain elements can be reinterpeted/reintegrated into the new Disney canon. Clone Wars kind of started this kind of trend even before the Disney takeover, as has Rebels and Marvel's comics. Certainly Abram's co-writers on the Star Trek films incorporated a lot of novel details into those films, such as Kirk's father being in Starfleet.


Also as pointed out a few pages back, why is such a big deal that Dooku defeated Anakin and Obi-Wan in AOTC? Sure Anakin was the Chosen one and stuff, but he was also foolhardy and petulant padawan at that point, and had already gotten zapped by Dooku's force lightning a bit. Plus Dooku had who knows how many decades of his own Jedi training at this point (and also trained Qui-Gon).

[AJBopp]

HYoda and Obi-Wan were part of the old flawed Jedi Order. Luke was supposed to be the new generation, learning from the mistakes of the past to create a new and better Jedi Order. Instead his nephew turned to the Dark Side and wiped out his new school, and Luke running away to do whatever also means that the Republic just got wiped out, making everything he fought for in the OT pointless considering we're back where we started with a small ragtag rebellion up against a big empire -ruled by a shadowy space wizard figure and his black knight- that just had its planet-destroying weapon blown up.

If this was Luke's plan it's not a great one, considering it hinged on the destruction of, what four/five planets?

The fact that the Jedi Order was able to be outmaneuvered is in no way an indication that it was flawed. We saw clearly, in fact, that it was not flawed. Luke could hardly have learned from the mistakes of the past since he didn't in fact know about the past of the Jedi Order, he was starting from scratch quite literally. It would be an odd thing indeed if Palpatine had not erased all historical records of the Jedi Council and the history of the Jedi, most of which would have been kept on Coruscant.

As for being back where we started - yes, that's kind of the point of The Force Awakens - it aims to retell the first three movies, with a bit of the prequels thrown in. That was hammered home in scene after un-original scene.

But since we don't know what Luke's plan is - or the conditions under which he had to make it - or what motivated Ben to become Rylo - or whether or how Rylo actually personally killed all the Jedi trainees - or who the Jedi trainees were - or really anything at all about 20 years before the start of the film - it's a slight exaggeration to say that Luke's plan was bad or that he ran away in cowardice. Let's try letting the larger story unfold before we come to conclusions about how we think it must turn out.

[ChrisIII]

Part of Luke's post-ANH story arc in the current Marvel/Disney Star Wars comics seems to be him trying to seek out Jedi lore and temples-especially the recent Nar Shadaa and Vader Down arcs. Wonder if that's intentional.

[the nomad]

Part of Luke's post-ANH story arc in the current Marvel/Disney Star Wars comics seems to be him trying to seek out Jedi lore and temples-especially the recent Nar Shadaa and Vader Down arcs. Wonder if that's intentional.

I was wondering the same thing but I'm thinking it's an unfortunate coincidence. B/c in the comic Luke is young and he's looking for Jedi remnants but in the movie it says that it wasn't until Kylo (Ben) turned that he went looking for the first Jedi Temple/Jedi remnants or whatever. That's a bit of conflict...unless I'm understanding it wrong.

[simbob4000]

I don't know what reasoning they're going to use for Luke, but I don't really think anything can really salvage him, whether it's fear of turning, whether he thinks he failed and thinks that Force users should just die out and not be trained anymore, or whatever. They've still turned him into the coward who wouldn't clean up his mess, yet another Jedi who just ran away and hid.



I wouldn't be surprised if Luke was originally supposed to confirm that Rey was his daughter at the end of the film, and then they just suddenly realised "hold on, we now have no hook for Rey's character in the sequel since she's already using the Force and winning lightsaber fights so her getting trained as Jedi won't really mean anything. Uh, let's still keep it a mystery as to who she is" and so they edited out Hamill's lines and had them stare at each other.

I'm guessing they were going to do that too, I'm thinking the ending was probably going to have that dialogue from the trailer where he says the thing about the force being strong in his family, and then after that the camera spins around them. The funny thing is they still don't have a hook for Rey, because no on is wonder about the thing that seems so obvious. She's either his daughter, or maybe she's related to Snoke and that's why he wants her. But it's just a bullshit thing that leaves the movie feeling like it's unfinished, the Vader reveal wasn't filling in a missing piece, it was just recontextualizing information the original movie gave you.

[simbob4000]

Hard to say, but I prefer not to look at those kinds of decision cynically. If they wanted a bigger hook for Ep VIII, good for them, it's part of the storytelling process.

For my own part, I think TFA is the best of the entire series, and I'm optimistic that VIII will top it.

Part of the storytelling process a telling good complete story, which The Force Awakens doesn't really do.

Why do you think it's the best of the series? It's a badly paced unfinished remake of the original movie. How can a badly paced unfinished version of Star Wars be better than Star Wars?

[simbob4000]

I've seen the movie twice and I'm still not sure what some people's problem with the final battle was. Before Rey battles Ren he is mortally wounded with a blaster bolt from Chewies cross bow, a weapon we were shown two other times in the movie completely slaughter anyone shot with it. Han sent a stormtrooper flying with a direct hit and killed a small group of troopers with one shot. Ren took that same weapon to the gut, without serious medical attention he probably would of died from the wound, not to mention the amount of blood they showed him losing at the start of the battle with him cradling the wound. He was far from 100% at the start of his battle with Rey and was clearly taken by surprise when she showed off her strength with the force. Ren was coming at her at best at 65% capacity, hurt and bleeding out and surprised by how strong she actually was. And let's not forget we are also shown quite early in the movie that Rey is well versed in melee combat when she beats up a group of people trying to steal bb on Jakku so it's reasonable to assume that she's been fighting for her life for the last ten years on that planet and not a no nothing novice when she entered that battle with Ren.

Are you the same person that said he was mortally wounded before? There can't be two people in this thread that are using mortally wounded wrong. Ren was not mortally wounded, a mortal wounded is a wounded that ends up killing the person, and Kylo Ren is very much still alive at the end of the movie. He is also using his wounded during the whole fight, while I'm sure he isn't 100%, the blaster wound you're talking about is a thing he's using in the fight. Him punching his wound is clearly a thing he's doing to help him. Kylo Ren is also a trained Force user, (and we see him doin pretty impressive things with it) he's trained with a Lightsaber, he's fighting a character that the movie never says has been trained in the Force or used a Lightsaber before. And yes, Rey can fight, she does seem good with her staff weapon...but a staff isn't a sword, or a sword that's just a handle.

What I go back to over and over again in my mind is something I read in an interview with JJ, Kylo Ren is not a fully formed villain at the start of this movie, his training isn't complete and he still feels the pull of the light. He is very much not Darth Vader who when we are first introduced to him is a master of the force, a full sith lord and feels nothing of the light anymore. JJ said in an interview that he wanted to show the origin of a villain, the growth of a villain, how someone could go from being a jedi to a sith, essentially he wanted to take Anakin's journey from the prequels and actually tell it well, which I think he did. Ren, despite his seeming control of the force is very inexperienced, very un trained, he's full of potential but hasn't yet completely embraced the dark side of the force. When he encounter Rey, perhaps the only person he's ever encountered as powerful as he is in the force, he isn't fully committed to being a dark lord, even after he kills his own father.

The movie says he hasn't finished his training too, but what training he does have is a lot more than the movie tells us Rey as had. Ren fully embraced the Dark Side of the Force right before his fight with Rey.

I feel like for me this movie has presented us with a very interesting journey. Where does Ren go from here, what will his training consist of with Snoake and the previous two trilogies are any implication then we know he will be getting some sort of revenge for the loss he suffered in this movie.

What journey?

And I'd like to point out that at the end of ANH Darth Vader is effectively defeated in combat over the Death Star and left for dead by a kid who has never set foot off planet let alone fly an x wing fighter and participate in a dog fight. So it's not as if Ren coming up on the losing end of this first encounter is some unprecedented maneuver in the star wars universe, Menace ended with a pretty decisive win for the good guys, ANH ended with an extremely decisive win in case there weren't anymore movied and TFA ended with a decisive win for the good guys. This movie is following the same ground work from the previous chapter ones in the two existing trilogies.

You do know the kid you're talking about is Han Solo? Darth Vader is shot from behind by Han Solo in Star Wars. And if Han Solo hadn't shown up in that moment Darth Vader would have killed the movies hero Luke Skywalker. Luke had to be saved at the end of Star Wars to do the thing we've been watching him train to do throughout that movie.

[simbob4000]

The fact that the Jedi Order was able to be outmaneuvered is in no way an indication that it was flawed. We saw clearly, in fact, that it was not flawed. Luke could hardly have learned from the mistakes of the past since he didn't in fact know about the past of the Jedi Order, he was starting from scratch quite literally. It would be an odd thing indeed if Palpatine had not erased all historical records of the Jedi Council and the history of the Jedi, most of which would have been kept on Coruscant.

As for being back where we started - yes, that's kind of the point of The Force Awakens - it aims to retell the first three movies, with a bit of the prequels thrown in. That was hammered home in scene after un-original scene.

But since we don't know what Luke's plan is - or the conditions under which he had to make it - or what motivated Ben to become Rylo - or whether or how Rylo actually personally killed all the Jedi trainees - or who the Jedi trainees were - or really anything at all about 20 years before the start of the film - it's a slight exaggeration to say that Luke's plan was bad or that he ran away in cowardice. Let's try letting the larger story unfold before we come to conclusions about how we think it must turn out.

How did we see they weren't flawed? All the prequels seemingly do in relation to the Jedi Order is show you how flawed and full of themselves they are.

[AJBopp]

How did we see they weren't flawed? All the prequels seemingly do in relation to the Jedi Order is show you how flawed and full of themselves they are.

The Jedi made no wrong choices in the movies, made no bad decisions. They were outmaneuvered into having only the best of bad choices presented, and they made the best they could. If you want to call that a flaw, I'll concede the point rather than argue about it.