Batman and Robin Eternal #12 Preview / Discussion

[bat_girl_cc]

I think it's pretty clear that's the "big twist".

Could be, we'll see.

[bat_girl_cc]

Be the villain in a Batman story and not in a Harper Row/Cassandra Cain Story.

But every issue is sepparated in 2, a huge flashback-sequence (which tells the tale of Batman vs Mother) and the present-time, The Mother has fought Batman in the past, and we are learning how it all went down issue after issue.
Also, this weekly it's a Dick Grayson story, stated multiple times by every single main writter and artist involved...which probably is the reason why Cass wasn't allowed to solo a freakin group of bailairinas, and needed to be saved by Grayson, lol. And its probably the reason why it has been Grayson calling the shots in the present time, when its so obvious that the Orphan would kill him in 5 panels max. Plus the reason why it was recently revealled that The Mother is ging to kill several of her children, and yet 2 issues ago she met Grayson in person and let him leave, because he's special and whatnot...etc.

[DGraysonWorldsGreatestSpy]

But every issue is sepparated in 2, a huge flashback-sequence (which tells the tale of Batman vs Mother) and the present-time, The Mother has fought Batman in the past, and we are learning how it all went down issue after issue.
Also, this weekly it's a Dick Grayson story, stated multiple times by every single main writter and artist involved...which probably is the reason why Cass wasn't allowed to solo a freakin group of bailairinas, and needed to be saved by Grayson, lol. And its probably the reason why it has been Grayson calling the shots in the present time, when its so obvious that the Orphan would kill him in 5 panels max. Plus the reason why it was recently revealled that The Mother is ging to kill several of her children, and yet 2 issues ago she met Grayson in person and let him leave, because he's special and whatnot...etc.

It is a Dick Grayson-Harper-Cassandra story as was stated by the main writer even though it is for the 75th anniversary of Batman and Robin. You also keep judging Cass by her Pre-52 feats when she has recently been introduced in this continuity where there have been changes in skills/attributes/personalities to many of the Bat characters like Red Robin, Batgirl, Grayson, Spoiler, and even Batman. You can take any of these characters and see a good amount of differences in there Pre and Post Flashpoints incarnations with Red Robin having the most significant changes. If you take in even further to include all of Batman's publishing history then Bruce Wayne was once just Master Scientist, trained to peak human abilities and Dick was a Boy Wonder proficient in chemicals science, can sing, play the Guitar/Piano, and is one hell of a fighter for an 10 y/o. Batman and Robin once used to build their own Robots to hide their identity, collect trophies regularly, and build their own gadgets etc. Each character has had some parts of their history altered so there is no reason you should automatically think Cass is at the same levels she was in Pre-Flashpoint since NO one is exactly like they were before.

[darkseidpwns]

Mother's problem is that :

Her name is generic.
Her look is generic.
Her modus operandi is similar to any generic "mastermind".
She's just retreading the same ground as Ra's with David and Morrisons Talia with army of brainwashed kids.
She doesn't have interesting skills or powers.
She doesn't have any unique characteristics.
She's the big villain of a mediocre story that will barely have any consequences if any.
I can write any villain having an army of fodder and staying 2 steps ahead,it's literally the easiest way of writing a villain.

Mr Bloom is a superior villain right now,that Den guy from Damians book has potential to be big.

[darkseidpwns]

BTW of all the villains to have shown up in this series yet Bane has easily been the most entertaining and coolest to read about. Maybe writers should take a cue and make Bane the main villain. Reveal him to be behind Mother,show that he orchestrated all this in Bruce's absence to split the family and destroy his legacy,leaving Gotham exposed and vulnerable for conquest, to me this already sounds better than Mother and I just made it up now.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Mother's problem is that :

Her name is generic.
Her look is generic.
Her modus operandi is similar to any generic "mastermind".
She's just retreading the same ground as Ra's with David and Morrisons Talia with army of brainwashed kids.
She doesn't have interesting skills or powers.
She doesn't have any unique characteristics.
She's the big villain of a mediocre story that will barely have any consequences if any.
I can write any villain having an army of fodder and staying 2 steps ahead,it's literally the easiest way of writing a villain.

Mr Bloom is a superior villain right now,that Den guy from Damians book has potential to be big.

Well, other than that, how'd you like the play Mrs. Lincoln?

[DGraysonWorldsGreatestSpy]

Mother's problem is that :

Her name is generic.
Her look is generic.
Her modus operandi is similar to any generic "mastermind".
She's just retreading the same ground as Ra's with David and Morrisons Talia with army of brainwashed kids.
She doesn't have interesting skills or powers.
She doesn't have any unique characteristics.
She's the big villain of a mediocre story that will barely have any consequences if any.
I can write any villain having an army of fodder and staying 2 steps ahead,it's literally the easiest way of writing a villain.

Mr Bloom is a superior villain right now,that Den guy from Damians book has potential to be big.

^This! Mother has done nothing unique as of yet to be considered for longevity. 2 steps ahead of you villain's rarely have legs after their game has been found out like Bane or Cluemaster. There have just been too many bad guys with personal connections and hidden histories regarding Bat family members that it becomes redundant. I will wait to see what her real name is and if she has bigger plans than the ones shown so far to properly see if she has legs going forward.

[Godlike13]

Ugh. That about all i could sum up about this issue.

[bat_girl_cc]

It is a Dick Grayson-Harper-Cassandra story as was stated by the main writer even though it is for the 75th anniversary of Batman and Robin. You also keep judging Cass by her Pre-52 feats when she has recently been introduced in this continuity where there have been changes in skills/attributes/personalities to many of the Bat characters like Red Robin, Batgirl, Grayson, Spoiler, and even Batman. You can take any of these characters and see a good amount of differences in there Pre and Post Flashpoints incarnations with Red Robin having the most significant changes. If you take in even further to include all of Batman's publishing history then Bruce Wayne was once just Master Scientist, trained to peak human abilities and Dick was a Boy Wonder proficient in chemicals science, can sing, play the Guitar/Piano, and is one hell of a fighter for an 10 y/o. Batman and Robin once used to build their own Robots to hide their identity, collect trophies regularly, and build their own gadgets etc. Each character has had some parts of their history altered so there is no reason you should automatically think Cass is at the same levels she was in Pre-Flashpoint since NO one is exactly like they were before.

True, but so far Cass hasn't been showed to be much different than how she used to be, and until she is, if she is, i'll keep beliving that she's the same character only not as awesome, but still awesome.

[bat_girl_cc]

Mother's problem is that :

Her name is generic.
Her look is generic.
Her modus operandi is similar to any generic "mastermind".
She's just retreading the same ground as Ra's with David and Morrisons Talia with army of brainwashed kids.
She doesn't have interesting skills or powers.
She doesn't have any unique characteristics.
She's the big villain of a mediocre story that will barely have any consequences if any.
I can write any villain having an army of fodder and staying 2 steps ahead,it's literally the easiest way of writing a villain.

Mr Bloom is a superior villain right now,that Den guy from Damians book has potential to be big.

As far as villains go, one could argue that every idea has alreay been made, but like i said earlier, The Mother is directly connected to all Bat-family members no other villain can say the same.
The Mother is easly the biggest threat to Batman there is in this new continuity, her reach and connections are jut scary, IMO. she has people everywhere as stated in this weeks issue.
I never saw Talia as being the threat that Mother is showing to be now, IMO, Ra's maybe but that's only because of the League Of Assassins, which we know to be a limited group of people, we still don't know how many people does The Mother have under her control...we're not talking about a small group of people here, we're talking about tons of people all arond the globe, some are positioned in important places of power.
Mr Bloom is a male Poison Ivy rip-off with a different story, as far as i'm concerned...As for Den d'Arga, chances are he will never be relevant out-side of Damians own book, The Mother is the main villain of the Bat-Familly flagship title.

[Kurtzberg]

As far as villains go, one could argue that every idea has alreay been made, but like i said earlier, The Mother is directly connected to all Bat-family members no other villain can say the same.
The Mother is easly the biggest threat to Batman there is in this new continuity, her reach and connections are jut scary, IMO. she has people everywhere as stated in this weeks issue.
I never saw Talia as being the threat that Mother is showing to be now, IMO

Talia devastated Gotham with Leviathan, she had Robin killed and tore Batman Inc into pieces. She blew up Wayne Tower and turned the entire city into a warzone, her army of children made the streets run red with blood. She had the police destroy the Bat signal and outlaw Batman. Bruce was beaten to a bloody pulp and poisoned crawling on the ground moments from death, and the world came within moments of behind practically destroyed. Talia under Morrison was perhaps the most over the top threat Bruce and Gotham has ever faced in recent memory, that's what Morrison's whole story was based on, biggest threat ever and she followed through on most of it.
Cluemaster in Eternal was a bigger threat than Mother. Come back when Gotham has reached at least a state of flaming wreckage before you claim Mother is a threat, we're half way through this and ain't nobody scared right now.

[Godlike13]

Cluemaster in Eternal was a bigger threat than Mother. Come back when Gotham has reached at least a state of flaming wreckage before you claim Mother is a threat, we're half way through this and ain't nobody scared right now.

Well she has Dick really insecure, so theres that.

[darkseidpwns]

Absolutely agreed with Kurtzberg,I used to think Prometheus was the most over the top Batvillain until Morrison gave us his Talia. She had Bruce beaten on every front, physical,mental,emotional, you name it.

[darkseidpwns]

As far as villains go, one could argue that every idea has alreay been made, but like i said earlier, The Mother is directly connected to all Bat-family members no other villain can say the same.
The Mother is easly the biggest threat to Batman there is in this new continuity, her reach and connections are jut scary, IMO. she has people everywhere as stated in this weeks issue.
I never saw Talia as being the threat that Mother is showing to be now, IMO, Ra's maybe but that's only because of the League Of Assassins, which we know to be a limited group of people, we still don't know how many people does The Mother have under her control...we're not talking about a small group of people here, we're talking about tons of people all arond the globe, some are positioned in important places of power.
Mr Bloom is a male Poison Ivy rip-off with a different story, as far as i'm concerned...As for Den d'Arga, chances are he will never be relevant out-side of Damians own book, The Mother is the main villain of the Bat-Familly flagship title.

I think directly connecting the villain to the hero is a superficial way of making them relevant Lincoln March is one example of this and Hush is another,neither of are examples of successful Batman villains. It's really something which can be done with ANY villain. Yesterday it was Hush,not it's Mother tomorrow it will be someone else. Point being it's not something that will remain in her exclusive domain.
Kurtzberg has covered Talia already but Den for instance has a cool design,unique powers, explores a different side of the Bat mythos,he might not be relevant outside Damian but he's different. Bloom too has a striking design and unique personality + powerset. They have an exotic look of sorts that conveys a message of who they are, in Mother case I just see an old woman really. They dont really need to be anything more than one story villains but Mother is not even exciting to read about in her own story, she is not interesting,nor threatening in her own story.

[bat_girl_cc]

Talia devastated Gotham with Leviathan, she had Robin killed and tore Batman Inc into pieces. She blew up Wayne Tower and turned the entire city into a warzone, her army of children made the streets run red with blood. She had the police destroy the Bat signal and outlaw Batman. Bruce was beaten to a bloody pulp and poisoned crawling on the ground moments from death, and the world came within moments of behind practically destroyed. Talia under Morrison was perhaps the most over the top threat Bruce and Gotham has ever faced in recent memory, that's what Morrison's whole story was based on, biggest threat ever and she followed through on most of it.
Cluemaster in Eternal was a bigger threat than Mother. Come back when Gotham has reached at least a state of flaming wreckage before you claim Mother is a threat, we're half way through this and ain't nobody scared right now.

Exactly, that's the thing! Talia, Lincoln Mars and others are Gotham City level threats...The Mother is a World level threat, as she has people under her command everywhere, and some of them are well placed in high positions of power, what i said as been stated throughout the series so far.
Also, The Mother is responsible for the making of David Cain who is responsible for the making of Cassandra Cain, also The Mother found out who Batman is, and she could have killed him but choosed not to, thats power right there! and she's connected to most if not all bat-family members...she's just...bigger.