Batman and Robin Eternal #12 Preview / Discussion

[Kurtzberg]

I'm not saying that The Mother is the all and be all of the Batman-villains, but i have to admit that i was getting bored as of late with the way that the bat-villains have been handled, it has been a long time coming to read a villain that i can feel its a legitimate threat, most of the time, i don't feel like Batman is in real danger or at a real disavantage, most of the time i can even see the way he will overcome his enemy before he does it as its so obvious, but this time, with The Mother things are different she has the means, she's dangerous, she's sick, and she's playing everyone, like The Joker, i feel like the bats could actually lose this one, which for me as reader makes me want to read the next issue more.
Also, either i'm very wrong, or by the end of this weekly, The Mother will have stablished herslef as the most capable and dangerous villain of them all in the Post-Flashpoint continuity.

Sorry, this might sound condescending, but newsflash: Batman is never truly in any real danger, he's a hugely valuable corporate owned intellectual property, he doesn't lose. Even when he dies, he comes back bigger and better.
Although, this time around Batman isn't there to actually lose this one at all, Batman isn't around right now, it's just some flashbacks of a "secret history" where Mother obviously never really defeated Batman because he survived years after their first encounter and didn't abandon Dick for this "perfect Robin", which probably leads to this being a bit of a minor footnote in the whole history of Batman. This isn't really a Batman story, so much as it is a Dick, Harper and Cass story.
This isn't Batman's fight to win, or even really participate in. So if you think this is going to produce the most dangerous Batman villain of them all in this new continuity when the climax won't actually be about Batman but rather Dick and company, well, I'd bet insanely large amounts of money you are very wrong.

[heyevaxx]

Hi bat_girl_cc,
In general, I agree with your thoughts on old David Cain having started as a tier-1-ish fighter and Mother being a dangerous super-villain.

About David, there's no doubt to me that he was close but below Batman in fighting. I thought of Cain as an aging master, past his physical prime but still a mortal threat to most. I would think that old Batman would have to attack/defend at his best with Cain to be sure he'd win.

Though it wasn't a fight, Cain' setting up of Bruce as a murderer was very impressive. Very few villains could break into the Batcave and frame Batman that way.

I liked Cain as the evil assassin/horrible parent who actually had some love in his heart for his daughter. That's enough for me to be a good comic character. He doesn't have to be connected to more than Cass and Bruce and appear in lots of titles.

About Mother, it's very simple: knowledge is power. In Mother's case, the knowledge of who is a programmed child is extremely powerful - we don't know how much though. Does she have 100 children scattered across the world in minimal to modest levels of power? Or, does she have 1000s of her children in middle to very high levels of power? We don't know for sure but the possibility is there. If she has generals, politicians, top bankers, media execs, etc in her control than she could be the most powerful villain ever. It depends.

I'm not sure that "Mother... could have killed [Bruce] but choose not to." I re-read that section where she's holding the spear on Bruce and to me it reads that Bruce is playing for time and teasing out the conversation. Even with the knife on his throat, Bruce says "Sorry, Mother. No Deal." and then grabs and breaks the spear before running off.

How physically threatening can a 60-ish year old who doesn't look like an aging bodybuilder (e.g. old David Cain) or a former martial arts master (e.g. an aged pre52 Lady Shiva) actually be? Twice she faced off with a great fighter in BRE: with Dick in present day behind the ballet and with Bruce in the past.

Why didn't Dick or Bruce just beat her up and take her in? For Bruce, he wants more info, he was (maybe) spooked buy her saying "You want a better Robin" and Orphan (with both hands!) was standing nearby. Oh, and he wasn't in his Batsuit (though he did have and use a smoke grenade).

For Dick, he also wanted info: was there a replacement Robin, are there "Mother's children" in the Batfam, how well can she handle that knife she's fingering, and what about her threat to set the ballet crowd on fire? For Mother, knowledge = power.

I don't think Bruce was in mortal danger from Mother: she didn't beat him or spare his life, at least not to me. But, Mother has power through knowledge and strategic manipulation of people and events. That's what makes her a very serious threat to the Batfam.

And while I don't know all of the other Gotham villains, I think that Mother messing with the Batfam relationships is really a big differentiator. Who can they trust? Dick: Does Bruce like me as Robin? Tim: Dick doesn't trust me so he goes to my parents. Dick: why is the Batfam on this list? Everyone: why did Bruce hide this Mother mess from us? etc, etc.

I like that she's a villain that gets inside not only individual Batfam heads but into the relationships within the Batfam. Pretty cool to me! I hope she's not simply killed off at the end of BRE. It'd be nice for her to disappear and always be a treat along with her children, whoever they are.

[Nix Uotan]

My own view; I like Mother and the potential she has to be a big bad villain in the Batman world. But one problem with Eternal is that we don't see why she is dangerous. We hear of her influence and see her disappear but I don't think she has reached the point where we are presented why she is dangerous. Maybe that might change once we get her goal and she is certainly got a dark edge to her namely the child abuse angle of turning kids to orphans and using them as her pawns. But I don't think we are presented to as readers that she is dangerous the way Ra's or the Court of Owls are... at least, not yet. Hope that changes soon as I do think she has some potential to be someone that can be used for big time threat instead of going back constantly to Ra's (not that I hate Ra's but variety is good).

But again... that's just my view.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Hi bat_girl_cc,
In general, I agree with your thoughts on old David Cain having started as a tier-1-ish fighter and Mother being a dangerous super-villain.

About David, there's no doubt to me that he was close but below Batman in fighting. I thought of Cain as an aging master, past his physical prime but still a mortal threat to most. I would think that old Batman would have to attack/defend at his best with Cain to be sure he'd win.

Though it wasn't a fight, Cain' setting up of Bruce as a murderer was very impressive. Very few villains could break into the Batcave and frame Batman that way.

I liked Cain as the evil assassin/horrible parent who actually had some love in his heart for his daughter. That's enough for me to be a good comic character. He doesn't have to be connected to more than Cass and Bruce and appear in lots of titles.

Totally agree on Cain. I'm baffled why people say he's no good as a character because he hasn't appeared in a million titles.

He has a basic internal dynamic and a strong, well defined connection with a hero. That's more than 90% of the villains out there can say.

[Aahz]

But every issue is sepparated in 2, a huge flashback-sequence (which tells the tale of Batman vs Mother) and the present-time, The Mother has fought Batman in the past, and we are learning how it all went down issue after issue.
Also, this weekly it's a Dick Grayson story, stated multiple times by every single main writter and artist involved...

But Batman is just in the flashbacks, and while Dick is one of the main charcaters, the story is more about Cass and Harper than about him, since he is at the moment the one character where we can be to almost 100% sure that he is not one of mothers children.

And for a story that is supposed to be the celebration of his 75th anniversary, his personal connection to the story is really small.

[G-Man27]

I don't know about anyone else but I'm convinced that the Sculpter is the New 52 version of Shondra Kinsolving.

Think about it, she has psychic powers and can put things into your head like a healer. Plus this is sort of like when she was manipulated by her half-brother during Knightquest.

[OWL45]

But Batman is just in the flashbacks, and while Dick is one of the main charcaters, the story is more about Cass and Harper than about him, since he is at the moment the one character where we can be to almost 100% sure that he is not one of mothers children.

And for a story that is supposed to be the celebration of his 75th anniversary, his personal connection to the story is really small.

Think it's about him in contrast to them in a lot of ways. Batman basically did to him what Mother did to her children. It was the same process in a lot of ways just not quite as contrived. Using the pain and anguish as a catalyst. The training and molding by tailoring their learning to fit the mission. I remember reading a few,Batman comics when they showed Bruce training Dick when he was young with Deduction games and puzzles, strategy, etc. Their are a lot of similarities between Bruce and Mother.

[Godlike13]

What, no theres not. Bruce saved Dick. He was his god damn hero. He gave him a home, and was there for him when he had nothing. He didn't do that because he wanted a kid partner or anything from Dick. That just happened.

[OWL45]

I said it wasn't as contrived although the Batman and Robin Eternal preview eludes to their being more the way Mother is talking to Bruce about Dick.

[MidTierHero]

Think it's about him in contrast to them in a lot of ways. Batman basically did to him what Mother did to her children. It was the same process in a lot of ways just not quite as contrived. Using the pain and anguish as a catalyst. The training and molding by tailoring their learning to fit the mission. I remember reading a few,Batman comics when they showed Bruce training Dick when he was young with Deduction games and puzzles, strategy, etc. Their are a lot of similarities between Bruce and Mother.

You couldn't be more off base if you tried. Mother is a twisted, evil version of Batman.

Batman didn't cause the deaths of Grayson's family (despite what Mother would have Dick believe.) Batman took him in when he had no one. Batman gave him a home and a family because he knew what Grayson was going through. In time, Grayson became Batman's partner willingly because he wanted to prevent other people from suffering the same.

Mother murders the families of children, then brainwashes them into becoming killers. She's an evil reflection of Batman.

[Dzetoun]

Okay, at the risk of stepping into the line of fire, I think we need to take notice of something that one of the authors, Tim Seeley actually, said with regard to Batman and Robin. To wit: it isn't real. It's all wish fulfillment in a world of magic and superheroes. No, Batman is not about mind-warping and child soldiers. The Robins are not abused by Bruce any more than they are permanently damaged by physical maneuvers that, in the real world, would result in shattered bones and permanently injured ligaments. And why aren't they permanently scarred and twisted by their training with Bruce? Because they are drawings that inhabit a two-dimensional world where they can defy anything, including death, simply by a writer saying they can.

Now, it's true that doesn't always make for the best, most satisfying, and most convincing storytelling. And it's perfectly fair and legitimate to point out when such fiats don't make for good stories. But just because the stories aren't always good doesn't change the rules of the fictional universe. Or, to put it another way, just because the plot may be poorly conceived or the writing unconvincing doesn't mean that it's any less "real" within the context of a universe that has no reality to it to start with.

So, Jason is reconciled to the Bat Family because the hostility wasn't working, everybody was tired of it and didn't want to go where it led, and the writers say it's over and they don't want to talk about it anymore. Cassandra Cain can beat anyone hand-to-hand until the writers say she loses, and then she loses, it's as simple as that. Dick Grayson is completely unharmed and unchanged by his experiences at Spyral because Seeley by God says so, and therefore it's a fact. Like it or not, there is no arguing with it's "reality."

In the case of Mother, she is about child soldiers and warping orphans mentally in evil ways. Batman is about rescuing orphans and teaching them to overcome their pain through extraordinary action. That isn't the way things would work in the real world. But this isn't real and it's not about legality, psychological accuracy, or sociological modeling. Perhaps it would be a better story if it were about those things, and perhaps it wouldn't. Be that as it may, this is a fantasy about heroes and villains, and when all's said and done it's going to be very clear which is which.

[joybeans]

Okay, at the risk of stepping into the line of fire, I think we need to take notice of something that one of the authors, Tim Seeley actually, said with regard to Batman and Robin. To wit: it isn't real. It's all wish fulfillment in a world of magic and superheroes. No, Batman is not about mind-warping and child soldiers. The Robins are not abused by Bruce any more than they are permanently damaged by physical maneuvers that, in the real world, would result in shattered bones and permanently injured ligaments. And why aren't they permanently scarred and twisted by their training with Bruce? Because they are drawings that inhabit a two-dimensional world where they can defy anything, including death, simply by a writer saying they can.

Now, it's true that doesn't always make for the best, most satisfying, and most convincing storytelling. And it's perfectly fair and legitimate to point out when such fiats don't make for good stories. But just because the stories aren't always good doesn't change the rules of the fictional universe. Or, to put it another way, just because the plot may be poorly conceived or the writing unconvincing doesn't mean that it's any less "real" within the context of a universe that has no reality to it to start with.

So, Jason is reconciled to the Bat Family because the hostility wasn't working, everybody was tired of it and didn't want to go where it led, and the writers say it's over and they don't want to talk about it anymore. Cassandra Cain can beat anyone hand-to-hand until the writers say she loses, and then she loses, it's as simple as that. Dick Grayson is completely unharmed and unchanged by his experiences at Spyral because Seeley by God says so, and therefore it's a fact. Like it or not, there is no arguing with it's "reality."

In the case of Mother, she is about child soldiers and warping orphans mentally in evil ways. Batman is about rescuing orphans and teaching them to overcome their pain through extraordinary action. That isn't the way things would work in the real world. But this isn't real and it's not about legality, psychological accuracy, or sociological modeling. Perhaps it would be a better story if it were about those things, and perhaps it wouldn't. Be that as it may, this is a fantasy about heroes and villains, and when all's said and done it's going to be very clear which is which.

Piggybacking onto this, comic book storytelling is best compared to mythology or Arthurian legends, rather than a universe such as Lord of the Rings or Star Wars. The internal set of rules of what is and isn't plausible is going to twist and bend and deform is going to vary from story to story, depending on who is telling the story, to whom the story is being told, and the context in which the story is told in. Martians may be preparing for a full-scale invasion of Earth, but none of that matters when it's Waffle Day at Gotham Academy.

[Dzetoun]

Piggybacking onto this, comic book storytelling is best compared to mythology or Arthurian legends, rather than a universe such as Lord of the Rings or Star Wars. The internal set of rules of what is and isn't plausible is going to twist and bend and deform is going to vary from story to story, depending on who is telling the story, to whom the story is being told, and the context in which the story is told in. Martians may be preparing for a full-scale invasion of Earth, but none of that matters when it's Waffle Day at Gotham Academy.

Excellent point. A comic book mythos is like, well, the Grail cycles, I suppose. In Chretien de Troyes, the grail is just a dish and isn't important except as a device to set up Percival to ask a question (or actually not to ask one). In Robert de Boron it becomes the Holy Grail with all the explicit symbolism of Medieval Catholicism. In the Vulgate cycle it becomes part and parcel of the Lancelot tragedy. In Wolfram von Eschenbach it's a magical stone whose ultimate meaning unites Christian and Saracens, man and monster. And there's no way to reconcile, for instance, Percival and Galahad, or the Grail Knights of the Vulgate with the Grail Brotherhood of Eschenbach.

Just so in Batman the meaning and identity of Robin shifts and changes from era to era and story to story. Sometimes those shifts and changes are well-done and powerful. Sometimes they just don't work (and it's worth noting that something that worked in one era of the mythos can easily become controversial and unpopular in another). Comic books have a burden in that, although they are actually legends, the writers for complicated reasons have to fashion the stories ostensibly as more ordinary narratives, leading to all kinds of ragged seams and contrived, convoluted justifications after the fact. A simple example is whether Bruce Wayne adopted Dick Grayson. That has led to all kinds of twists and turns over the years, with all kinds of explanations. The simple fact, of course, is that Dick Grayson's initial origin reflected the social and legal milieu of 1940, in which single men were not allowed to adopt children, although they could serve as legal guardians. By the 1980s that had changed, and the mythos adapted in various ways to reflect the times.

So, is Robin a child soldier? There was a time when you could have said "yes" and gotten away with it. That language of "good soldier" was explicitly used with regard to Jason up to 2005, and with regard to Damian as recently as 2012. But, in 2016 (as it will soon be) that kind of thing has become more sensitive (in truth it didn't go down well in a lot of quarters in 2005, and even less in 2012) and freighted with implications that no longer can be encompassed by the mythos without radical shifts. Robin is a hero. Robin is a fighter in a battle of his or her own choosing. Robin may be a soldier in the sense of freely joining a brotherhood of a particular kind of war. But note that when King chose words to express the essence of Robin, traditional warrior terms such as "duty," "honor," "cause," "sacrifice," and "obedience" were conspicuously absent.

[Bookem Danno]

Mother's problem is that :

Her name is generic.
Her look is generic.
Her modus operandi is similar to any generic "mastermind".
She's just retreading the same ground as Ra's with David and Morrisons Talia with army of brainwashed kids.
She doesn't have interesting skills or powers.
She doesn't have any unique characteristics.
She's the big villain of a mediocre story that will barely have any consequences if any.
I can write any villain having an army of fodder and staying 2 steps ahead,it's literally the easiest way of writing a villain.

Yep. Underwhelming and too exposition-heavy issue.

That's why Sculptor has a better chance to make the Rogues Gallery - but even there there might be better words than 'sculpting' associated with psi forces. So, just to clarify for me - Mother somehow was motivated to recruit Sculptor to brainwash hard-on-theire-luck kids and/or orphans to follow her forever and if they weren't good she somehow removed them from Gotham, right?

Someone above listed recyclable chess player villains - heck, add the leader of Dicks' spy group to the list.

And when are we supposed to gather that her Batman flashback happened in the DCU timeline of Robin?

People have already guessed that Batman might be faking it. It was poorly presented but if so it will probably be attempt to get sales from outraged shock value like when Marvel led fans to believe Doom orchestrated their whole original launch accident.

[bat_girl_cc]

Hi bat_girl_cc,
In general, I agree with your thoughts on old David Cain having started as a tier-1-ish fighter and Mother being a dangerous super-villain.

About David, there's no doubt to me that he was close but below Batman in fighting. I thought of Cain as an aging master, past his physical prime but still a mortal threat to most. I would think that old Batman would have to attack/defend at his best with Cain to be sure he'd win.

Though it wasn't a fight, Cain' setting up of Bruce as a murderer was very impressive. Very few villains could break into the Batcave and frame Batman that way.

I liked Cain as the evil assassin/horrible parent who actually had some love in his heart for his daughter. That's enough for me to be a good comic character. He doesn't have to be connected to more than Cass and Bruce and appear in lots of titles.

About Mother, it's very simple: knowledge is power. In Mother's case, the knowledge of who is a programmed child is extremely powerful - we don't know how much though. Does she have 100 children scattered across the world in minimal to modest levels of power? Or, does she have 1000s of her children in middle to very high levels of power? We don't know for sure but the possibility is there. If she has generals, politicians, top bankers, media execs, etc in her control than she could be the most powerful villain ever. It depends.

I'm not sure that "Mother... could have killed [Bruce] but choose not to." I re-read that section where she's holding the spear on Bruce and to me it reads that Bruce is playing for time and teasing out the conversation. Even with the knife on his throat, Bruce says "Sorry, Mother. No Deal." and then grabs and breaks the spear before running off.

How physically threatening can a 60-ish year old who doesn't look like an aging bodybuilder (e.g. old David Cain) or a former martial arts master (e.g. an aged pre52 Lady Shiva) actually be? Twice she faced off with a great fighter in BRE: with Dick in present day behind the ballet and with Bruce in the past.

Why didn't Dick or Bruce just beat her up and take her in? For Bruce, he wants more info, he was (maybe) spooked buy her saying "You want a better Robin" and Orphan (with both hands!) was standing nearby. Oh, and he wasn't in his Batsuit (though he did have and use a smoke grenade).

For Dick, he also wanted info: was there a replacement Robin, are there "Mother's children" in the Batfam, how well can she handle that knife she's fingering, and what about her threat to set the ballet crowd on fire? For Mother, knowledge = power.

I don't think Bruce was in mortal danger from Mother: she didn't beat him or spare his life, at least not to me. But, Mother has power through knowledge and strategic manipulation of people and events. That's what makes her a very serious threat to the Batfam.

And while I don't know all of the other Gotham villains, I think that Mother messing with the Batfam relationships is really a big differentiator. Who can they trust? Dick: Does Bruce like me as Robin? Tim: Dick doesn't trust me so he goes to my parents. Dick: why is the Batfam on this list? Everyone: why did Bruce hide this Mother mess from us? etc, etc.

I like that she's a villain that gets inside not only individual Batfam heads but into the relationships within the Batfam. Pretty cool to me! I hope she's not simply killed off at the end of BRE. It'd be nice for her to disappear and always be a treat along with her children, whoever they are.

I know that David doesn't have to be in lots of comics to be a good a character, nor does he needs lot's of showings to prove his badassery, that's why i was comparing him to Batman and Deathstroke in terms of capablity, in the few showings that he had, he proved himslef to be capable of fighting on equal ground with the likes of Batman and Deathstroke, although Deathstroke should beat both. but he later got nerfed, iif we compare his showings of stallemating Btaman to get K.O'ed by Tim Drake, his nefing become pain-fully obvious.
Agreed on The Mother, we still don't know just how powerfull she is, but we know her to be very powerfull, just the statements we've had from people taking about her until now, show that she's crazy capable and scary.
She could have killed Batman, at one point and after the spear and almst cutting Bruce's throat, Bruce himself said: "then why don't you fnish this now?" and she then taunted him, he broke the spear because he figured that she didn't wantted to kill him then and there, otherwise he wouldn't have made any move, because The Mother would have only need to push the spear down his throat, it ould be a easy kill, and after Bruce runned away, The Orphan asked Mother to go after him, but she didn't let him, she just didn't wnatted to kill him.
We don't know how skilled she is in combat, but she's obviously no slouch, she could have killed Batman in 2 panels, lol.
Also, The Mother is old and for a master-mind to run things at such a high degree for so long, we know that she's wise, so she wouldn't put herslef in danger in front of Batman and Dick Grayson if she didn't knew that she could take them.
Actually i thought that The Mother would try to kill Grayson when she showed up in front of him, on B&RE7 but then i remembered that this story its about Grayson, so obiously he wouldn't be harmed
She won't be killed, because no-one save for Jason fights to kill in the Bat-fam, and he's more good than bad now, out-side circunstances would be needed, but i don't think it will happen, the bat-writters have been hyping her to be a threat on Ra's level, so killing her would be a huge waste of oportunity.