Bronze Tiger vs. Black Panther

[The Dork Knight]

Vanguard there's a mod ruling on top that says bullet timers blitz peak humans . Matt is a bullet timer . Therefore he blitzes the peak human Panther

Like how Flash blitzes Deathstroke, which is but an extension of the same concept on a greater scale

But Slade has also tagged Flash several times in the comics . This is considered PIS here because
- Slade doesn't have independent non fight related feats where he is a speedster with feats in even nanoseconds to allow him to tag Flash , quite the opposite , he gets shot and struggles with Batman who has similar speed feats , right down to tagging speedsters

This means either Slade is FTL or he is merely peak human jobbing out people faster than him who are forgetting their speed when facing him for the sake of the plot

Likewise Daredevil does things like bat away bullets with a thin club , right from his earliest appearances till now . BP doesn't .

We have seen that bullet timers move too fast for peak humans to even track their movements ( Batman vs Cass , Captain America vs DD ) . Of course just like Slade they tag these people on occasion too ( again Cass vs Bruce and Cap vs DD , separate occasions)

So it comes down to which is PIS ? The people with the speed feats not related to fights forgetting their speed or the guys without the speed feats tagging the faster people in fights ?

There's a mod ruling resolving this very issue at the top of the page . Read it

[The Dork Knight]

Bullets job to everybody. Not a very strong argument. Matt is human, close to peak human on his best day.

.....

Nanoseconds job to the Flash too presumably ?

[Pendaran]

I'm not ignoring you or your questions. Thanks for the scans. It's just the way things are set up there's no way to say what's legit and what's not. Btw how does DD have such a good outing against someone who is his superior in every way except for his senses?

Is he Daredevil's superior in every way? Because I could tell you that Daredevil has done things like parry bullets in flight back at their shooters with thin sticks, best Wolverine, give Spiderman a hard time, tip over a limo or some such nonsense, and to go even just into stuff I'd find ridiculous, endure some physical abuse from Namor and not die despite his only protection being.. nothing. And has otherwise taken on ridiculous numbers of opponents (nearing 100 as I recall it) and made a whole thing of it. Recently showed up Captain America to a fair extent.

All these things happened in one way or another over the years. Does that mean they all count?

Here, ultimately, is the problem. There's not actually any such thing as legit. No showing is any more or less legit than any other showing, outside of if something is canonical or not, and even then, that's not much. Because we're talking about comics, the only thing that is true is that any character at any given time is as fast, strong, powerful, smart, as the writer at the time wants them to be. The only real answer to "who wins" is "whoever the writer would want to win". There's no power, there's no anything. There's only the story, and the rules the writer decides that their story has.

If you want to debate about these things anyway, you want to say, I don't know "Spiderman could totally beat up Batman", something like that, well, welcome to Rumbles, where we want to try to have nerd debates about fictional characters. To prevent it from boiling down to "the character I want to win, wins" for a million pages, we first agree that there actually can be such a thing as legit, that you can treat a character's powers and whatever, as actual things. That we can actually apply logic and debate here. We're then stuck with, as all battleboard debate whatevers are stuck with, is your very problem "well, what is legit?" because as you can see, depending on your standards, stuff starts contradicting itself, there are no answers to why, and it basically just becomes "because I say so". So, different places address this in different ways. Some try to purport to some hypothetical average of highs and lows. Some try to say "well here's what would happen in a comic", despite not being the writers of comics. Up in here, we try to say "because we're using logic as an underpinning, this means performances, presentation, and the capacity of a character can be logically analyzed and measured within the context of both that character, and the character or thing they are doing stuff to as far as if a showing is valid or not." There's nothing wrong with not liking that, but it's the way we've gone with, and it's worked pretty nicely for multiple incarnations of this board now as far as having moderated debates and such.

So things like, say, as a really basic example the Flash demonstrably having faster than light reaction time as one of his explicitly named superpowers and various performances to support it would mean that when, say, Heat Wave, who has the reaction time of basically a dude, hits him, the Flash is being jobbed out, because by his powers, he could/should dodge the hell out of that. That's how we go at things.

[Pendaran]

Bullets job to everybody. Not a very strong argument. Matt is human, close to peak human on his best day.

You can't really say something jobbed when your argument for a showing counting is that it happened.

[The Dork Knight]

Bullets job to everybody. Not a very strong argument. Matt is human, close to peak human on his best day.

In fact if that's your argument that bullets are the jobbers and not other characters , what pray disqualifies Matt beating T'Challa?

Matt has far more conclusive victories over say Captain America and Wolverine than T'Challa. Hell he has far more conclusive victories vs Spider Man and even stalemated Iron Fist once.

Since performances against other people is the sole criterion being used and presumably things like dodging bullets and lifting weights is bullets and weights jobbing, what pray makes that showing inadmissable?

[Vanguard]

All I've learned is that dodging and defelecting bullets seem to be the catalyst for everyone's combat speed. So since DD has a feat of batting away a bullet, which he shouldn't be able to do. He therefore beats BP, Batman, Cap and a host of other people. Yea.....I'll leave you guys to it.

[The Dork Knight]

In fact since it's sure to come up at this point , BP has never actually beaten a class 100 of any type on panel . Yes he sure did use energy gloves and all to ultimately fail to KO Namor , he sure did something off panel vs Black Dwarf but none of it is as impressive as the time Daredevil literally took off Ultron's head with a twig ( and a minor assist from Karnak)

Since all feats count so long as they happened now , what makes Panther better than the guy who beat freakin Ultron?

Don't back out of your own logic now

[The Dork Knight]

All I've learned is that dodging and defelecting bullets seem to be the catalyst for everyone's combat speed. So since DD has a feat of batting away a bullet, which he shouldn't be able to do. He therefore beats BP, Batman, Cap and a host of other people. Yea.....I'll leave you guys to it.

That's certainly....one way of looking at it . Another is that you completely abandoned your own logic when it wasn't going your way

BTW I thought your criterion for a feat being admissible was " it happened". Well Daredevil beating Cap and Wolverine and T'Challa sure happened . Any reason why he "shouldn't be able to do it"?any reason at all? Is there ANY logic you are following ?

[Vanguard]

In fact since it's sure to come up at this point , BP has never actually beaten a class 100 of any type on panel . Yes he sure did use energy gloves and all to ultimately fail to KO Namor , he sure did something off panel vs Black Dwarf but none of it is as impressive as the time Daredevil literally took off Ultron's head with a twig ( and a minor assist from Karnak)

Since all feats count so long as they happened now , what makes Panther better than the guy who beat freakin Ultron?

Don't back out of your own logic now

I'm not backing out of anything. I stand by what I said. I'll just agree to disagree.

[The Dork Knight]

I'm not backing out of anything. I stand by what I said. I'll just agree to disagree.

You just said Matt "should not be able to beat Cap , BP etc" because ....reasons?

Since he has done it . Any reason to disqualify those showings?

[The Dork Knight]

Just so you know I'm not pulling things out of thin air

DD vs Cap
http://oi49.tinypic.com/2im9lck.jpg



DD vs Logan
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/...859-dd73nf.jpg
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/...ddbw_super.jpg

Questionable writing on both issues aside they sure happened . That doesn't count, why?

[Vanguard]

I never said that. You're trying to bait me into an argument. I don't want to argue. BP and Cap are enhanced humans (and BP even more so now) Matt is basically just human aside from his senses. That's what I said.

By your logic. Taskmaster who caught a bullet, is faster than DD. So Taskmaster beats DD right?

[The Dork Knight]

I never said that. You're trying to bait me into an argument. I don't want to argue. BP and Cap are enhanced humans (and BP even more so now) Matt is basically just human aside from his senses. That's what I said.

Oh goody . karate kid is also not even called an enhanced human . Captain America beats him too...because statements?

By your logic. Taskmaster who caught a bullet, is faster than DD. So Taskmaster beats DD right?

Given Tasky needs to activate the double-timing thing to do so,given his feats are not nearly as good as Matt moving out of the path of a bullet after he wasn't even aware of it till it was close enough to be seen in his shades , no not really

It does mean Taskmaster beats Captain America and BP however

[Vanguard]

Taskmaster.....okay....that pretty much does it for me. You have a nice day.

[The Dork Knight]

I mean by statements , right there in the forum rules section , " Ten Eyed man is the most dangerous man in the world ". Does he beat Captain America too?

This otherwise is a statement from Batman whose already faced the likes of Shiva and Bronze Tiger at this point . So Ten Eyed Man can take down Cap presumably?