Bronze Tiger vs. Black Panther

[Sharpandpointies]

Technically speaking post crisis by itself was a nerf given pre crisis Batman could stalemate all of them in combat

Ah ...comics . Depends on which point you jump in and start screaming " That's not how it used to be !" ;p

As I recall, Bruce didn't actually do so well against Richard Dragon pre-Crisis.

They met, Bruce thought Richard was some killer and went after him. Dragon wasn't interested in fighting, Bruce was going all-out, and Dragon basically shut down everything he tried.

[Sharpandpointies]

Shiva, Tiger AND Richard Dragon should all be written as being a notch above the rest. Establish these three as the pinacle of martial arts in the Nu52. That's all they're really known for. I want them on a tier ABOVE guys like Batman and Deathstroke, who aren't known soley for their martial arts and are more of a well-rounded mixture of fighting skills, weapons/equipment/gadgets and tactics that let them compete with the TRUE masters of the fight game, those being Shiva, Tiger and Dragon. It's somewhere in the middle of these tiers where I'd like to see Cass Cain sitting, also. Have her transcend Batman's tier after a few more years of training under Batman, and eventually become good enough to take on the Top 3 and one day even surpass them, fulfilling her "destiny" so to speak.

Tend to agree with this, myself. Hardly surprising. :D I'd be cool with Cass being a little below Batman now or on his level, and working her way up. Gives her something to work on. It's a new character, really - not the same one. Interesting, but her background is different now, her personality is different now...

Also, agree with David Cain/Orphan. Dude is unrecognizable, now.

[The Dork Knight]

As I recall, Bruce didn't actually do so well against Richard Dragon pre-Crisis.

They met, Bruce thought Richard was some killer and went after him. Dragon wasn't interested in fighting, Bruce was going all-out, and Dragon basically shut down everything he tried.

Eh he didn't beat him either . In any case he clearly stalemated Shiva and Tiger. Not like Dragon has anything post crisis at all

[Sharpandpointies]

Eh he didn't beat him either.

When one guy is trying as hard as he can, and the other guy is basically saying 'Nope, nope, look I just want to leave, nope, nope', and then the first guy says 'okay, I'll try something different...that didn't work...well, how about this!...that didn't work...okay, I'll back off now because it's pretty obvious I'm not getting anywhere at all attacking you, let's talk,' I tend to look at that as a clear demonstration of one guy being better than the other. :D

Mileage, of course, may vary.

Not like Dragon has anything post crisis at all

Absolutely. Which is why people tend to use Pre-Crisis Dragon when talking about such things.

I've never seen Pre-Crisis Batman against Shiva, unless we're talking Death in the Family (was that Pre-Crisis? Gawd, I can't remember). There, I would disagree with the idea that it was a clean stalemate. For me, Shiva certainly appeared to have the upper hand, though Batman was giving her a hard time.

But then, I think we've been over that before. Perspectives.

[The Dork Knight]

No they fought in pre crisis in a Question/Green Arrow crossover . Shiva surprise attacked him but he stalemated her anyway . I'll look for issue no or scans.

[The Dork Knight]

Gah its post crisis and actually pre dates Death in the Family

http://asylums.insanejournal.com/sca...ly/858926.html

It also makes pre crisis Shiva and Dragon stuff canon apparently o_0

Given how Batman treats her in this fight....the DiTF fight comes across as somehwat inconsistent let's say...

[Sharpandpointies]

Gah its post crisis and actually pre dates Death in the Family

C'mon, join in with cursing DC and its reboots/canonicity. :D

http://asylums.insanejournal.com/sca...ly/858926.html

It also makes pre crisis Shiva and Dragon stuff canon apparently o_0

Better and better, and THANK YOU for the link. I have most of these scans, but not all of them. Man, I love that old stuff. ^_^

Given how Batman treats her in this fight....the DiTF fight comes across as somehwat inconsistent let's say...

There's an inconsistency, but which direction?

Given Shiva's demonstrated skill and rep, I'm pretty cool with the Death in the Family being the more correct one (it also dovetails nicely with the other, pre-Cassandra Cain stuff such as Knightfall and the Connor Hawke martial art tournament). That is, straight-up fighting Batman is giving Shiva a hard time, they're close, but she seems to be giving better than she gets (before Jason sneaks in and punches her in the occipital bun).

Bruce using his gear and all other skills/stuff along with his fighting ability? He's going to win.

Mileage may vary, of course.

[HulkSmash666]

Just so we're clear, you're saying you don't want anyone nerfed from their post-Crisis levels.

Except Cass, who for some reason should be below Shiva and Bronze Tiger, despite being explicitly above them post-Crisis.

But other than that arbitrary nerfing, absolutely everyone should be at post-Crisis levels.

Does this not strike you as maybe just a little hypocritical....?

Well really, even in Post-Crisis Cass didn't start out as the top fighter on the planet. She had to earn it, and when she took on Shiva to claim that mantle she actually lost the first couple of times before finally beating her.

Since she's only just starting out in the Nu52, why not keep her just below top tier so she gets more of journey through the ranks.

[Sharpandpointies]

Well really, even in Post-Crisis Cass didn't start out as the top fighter on the planet. She had to earn it, and when she took on Shiva to claim that mantle she actually lost the first couple of times before finally beating her.

Those losses being interesting.

1. First loss: Cass has no body-reading/no defence. She gets murdered.
2. Second loss: Cass actually has the idea of suicide by Shiva, and is looking to get killed. Obviously, she loses (essentially throwing the fight).

But equally interesting is her first real win against Shiva (I'm not talking about the time when she punched Shiva in the face with a dislocated arm while handing over a bracelet).

Cass is actually LOSING that fight. The portrayal is both of them going back and forth, roughly equal. Then Shiva gets the upper hand and hammers Cass with a series of blows while Cass lands nothing in return.

Cass then sees something in Shiva's body language. Cass then hits her with 'You have a death wish as well - you want to die.'

Shiva is (apparently) stunned, gaping and in shock. Cass smacks her a good one.

Shiva then charges, all control seemingly lost, literally frothing at the mouth and way off her game. Cass beats the snot out of her - edit - while continuing to goad her with this idea. Shiva goes down after a barrage of punches.

Then, without having been touched since Shiva was beating her around the room unopposed, Cass collapses next to Shiva. She then goes into a coma for three days. Shiva, in fact, gets up before Cass does and wanders off.

So.

Had Cass not thrown Shiva off her game...Shiva was brutalizing her. In fact, judging by what happened, had Shiva simply stepped back and waited, Cass would have collapsed without Shiva touching her even one more time. The only reason Shiva lost the fight - the fight she had been clearly winning - was that (supposedly) Cass threw her off her game with the 'revelation' that Shiva herself had a Death Wish.

This gets muddied later, when (under another writer) Shiva reveals 'No, actually I threw that fight because I could see you weren't ready to kill me. Of course I had a death wish. I MADE you so that you would eventually hunt me down and kill me, after all. Now you're not only good enough, you're finally ready to kill me. So let's fight.'

And Cass snaps her neck after a couple of pages of fighting.

I view that as the point where Cass is truly at her peak, as she clearly demonstrates superiority over Shiva. Her first win? Not so much.

Since she's only just starting out in the Nu52, why not keep her just below top tier so she gets more of journey through the ranks.

Indeed.

[Sharpandpointies]

See Shiva? You can be a somewhat decent mother if you put in the effort.

The other ones that artist did are equally cute and hilarious, but I felt that one encapsulated things best.

My favourite, however, is Talia blabbing on about how awesome Damian is while Shiva just sits and stares at her with a 'god, you and your family are annoying' look on her face.

Am at work, or I'd post it.