View Poll Results: What was THE ULTIMATE LGBT HIGHLIGHT of 2015?

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  • AGENTS OF S.H.I.E.L.D (ep. 1, season 3) Jose Cuterrez is the first ever LGBT hero in the MCU

    2 3.85%
  • ALL NEW X-MEN #40. Jean Grey outs 05 Iceman

    6 11.54%
  • AMAZING SPIDERMAN #1. The wedding of Max Modell

    0 0%
  • ANGELA: ASSASSIN OF ASGARD #3. Sera becomes one of the first ever truly trans heroes

    3 5.77%
  • ANGELA: QUEEN OF HEL #1. 5th ever LGBT solo series from Marvel, Angela & Sera are confirmed lovers.

    7 13.46%
  • ANT-MAN ANNUAL #1. Introducing Raz Malhotra as a potential Giant Man

    2 3.85%
  • DAREDEVIL (ep. 3, season 1). In passing we have our first ever mention than LGBT exist in the MCU

    0 0%
  • GWENPOOL CHRISTMAS SPECIAL. Sharon King confirmed married to Ellen King

    0 0%
  • JESSICA JONES (ep. 1, season 1). Jeri Hogarth first confirmed lesbian of the MCU

    1 1.92%
  • MARVEL HEROES. Wiccan becomes a playable character as an enhanced ‘costume’ for the Scarlet Witch

    0 0%
  • NEW AVENGERS #1. Wiccan and Hulkling become the first ever LGBT couple on an Avengers roster.

    4 7.69%
  • SECRET WARS: SIEGE #2. Magik and Leah confirmed as lovers.

    1 1.92%
  • ULTIMATES #1. Miss America Chavez becomes the first LGBT POC on an Avengers roster.

    6 11.54%
  • UNCANNY X-MEN #600. Iceman comes out, becoming the first ever A-list gay character from Marvel.

    15 28.85%
  • WOLVERINES #7. Mystique & Destiny finally depicted as lovers; LGBT romance catalyst for the series

    5 9.62%
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  1. #46
    Endangered Member Reality's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZNOP View Post
    Let me see if I understand what your saying here correctly... So, if someone had a vile of puny Banner's blood and a vile of Hulk's blood and sent both to a genetics testing lab both samples wouldn't be genetically identical because he/they are a Chimera?
    Well, in real life chimeras generally have different genetics in different types of tissue- such as the woman whose children were not a match in a genetic test for her because her ovaries had her absorbed twin's genetics. But with Banner due to the transformation I'd say the samples would look like you mixed two people's blood. There would be two different genomes present, alongside each other.

  2. #47
    Mighty Member NexusTenebrare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiamatty View Post
    Oh, well, he made a joke so he must be gay!

    You know, I have no problem with Iceman being gay. I'm happy for all the people that it meant a lot to. So I'm not coming at this from a negative "ruined forever!" standpoint.

    But using that "Lance" panel as "evidence" of anything is one of the most ridiculous things ever. It was a joke. An obvious joke made to annoy Beast. It's not proof. People make jokes like that all the time. I joke around about being gay, that I'll probably end up coming out of the closet. But I am quite comfortably and contentedly straight. I make jokes about being attracted to specific guys, but I'm really not. It's just jokes, because people like making jokes. That was what the "Lance" panel was. A joke. Just a joke. It was a joke and no more than a joke and it was not intended as more than a joke. In-universe it was a joke, and out-of-universe it was a joke. Every single element of that line was a joke. It. Is. Not. Proof. He's. Gay.

    Honestly, most of the stuff people use as "proof" is not proof. It's proof if you squint really hard to find something you're already completely convinced is there. It's going in with a preconceived conclusion and then cherry-picking out-of-context panels in order to try to rationalize it.



    There was no evidence of Iceman being gay. That's fine; plenty of people come out despite never having had providing any hints of that beforehand. That happens. But let's be honest about this: There was no prior evidence of Iceman being gay, and at least half of the post-hoc rationalizations are complete bullshit.
    I"ve never even heard of this Lance joke you're referening too.
    It's in no way something most people use as evidence that Bobby was gay all along.
    For me and a lot of people, it wasn't just one single thing. It was a lot of minor things over a long time.

    And no, none of them are in themselves proof that he's gay, but nothing is. Have you ever seen a camp guy and thought he was gay? Well that isn't proof either, because straight people can be camp too.
    Short of kissing another guy there isn't actual proof. It was always speculation as these kinds of things always are.

    But a lot of us have always gotten this feeling from Bobby. For there to be this strong a sense of it, there must have been something to it. Other characters like Thor or Iron Man haven't had the same level of suspicion of being gay. I'm sure there are a few people that wish they were, but Bobby has always had a large number (relatively) who thought he was gay. Given that he isn't even that popular a character, that has to come from somewhere.

  3. #48
    Incredible Member Wiccan615's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiamatty View Post
    Oh, well, he made a joke so he must be gay!

    You know, I have no problem with Iceman being gay. I'm happy for all the people that it meant a lot to. So I'm not coming at this from a negative "ruined forever!" standpoint.

    But using that "Lance" panel as "evidence" of anything is one of the most ridiculous things ever. It was a joke. An obvious joke made to annoy Beast. It's not proof. People make jokes like that all the time. I joke around about being gay, that I'll probably end up coming out of the closet. But I am quite comfortably and contentedly straight. I make jokes about being attracted to specific guys, but I'm really not. It's just jokes, because people like making jokes. That was what the "Lance" panel was. A joke. Just a joke. It was a joke and no more than a joke and it was not intended as more than a joke. In-universe it was a joke, and out-of-universe it was a joke. Every single element of that line was a joke. It. Is. Not. Proof. He's. Gay.

    Honestly, most of the stuff people use as "proof" is not proof. It's proof if you squint really hard to find something you're already completely convinced is there. It's going in with a preconceived conclusion and then cherry-picking out-of-context panels in order to try to rationalize it.



    There was no evidence of Iceman being gay. That's fine; plenty of people come out despite never having had providing any hints of that beforehand. That happens. But let's be honest about this: There was no prior evidence of Iceman being gay, and at least half of the post-hoc rationalizations are complete bullshit.
    I actually agree with you, there wasn't "proof" but at the same time, there really doesn't need to be. People repress their sexuality for whatever reason and live their whole lives as something they want to be and not as what they are. That is a realization that can be added to a character and I think with Bobby's past writing a gay narrative definitely fits and rings true to what closeted people actually experience but not everyone who goes through what Bobby went through ends up gay (talking exclusively of the way he's been portrayed pre-outing). So none of what he was characterized as before proves that he was closeted but the possibility to add that narrative was always there, because the "failing" at relationships, being repressed, growing up with bigoted parents, etc is something that a lot of closeted people have experienced as well (but not exclusively obviously).

  4. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by NexusTenebrare View Post
    I"ve never even heard of this Lance joke you're referening too.
    It's in no way something most people use as evidence that Bobby was gay all along.
    For me and a lot of people, it wasn't just one single thing. It was a lot of minor things over a long time.

    And no, none of them are in themselves proof that he's gay, but nothing is. Have you ever seen a camp guy and thought he was gay? Well that isn't proof either, because straight people can be camp too.
    Short of kissing another guy there isn't actual proof. It was always speculation as these kinds of things always are.

    But a lot of us have always gotten this feeling from Bobby. For there to be this strong a sense of it, there must have been something to it. Other characters like Thor or Iron Man haven't had the same level of suspicion of being gay. I'm sure there are a few people that wish they were, but Bobby has always had a large number (relatively) who thought he was gay. Given that he isn't even that popular a character, that has to come from somewhere.
    I saw a few people bringing up the "Lance" panel when Iceman first came out. And I've other panels mentioned. And not a single one of them was the least bit compelling. (Emma joking about him becoming an interior decorator, for example.)

    It's fine with it just being "a feeling." I never really got that vibe from Iceman, but then again, I've never cared about Iceman. I will say that about the only romance he's had that I bought was with Opal. And that was only during X-Factor - once X-Factor ended, the relationship really stopped mattering, and was ended as soon as they remembered it existed. Which was a shame. Other than that, I actually do agree that there was a real vibe of him wanting a girlfriend because he was supposed to have a girlfriend. I can definitely see that. I don't agree with it being about competitiveness. He started pursuing Lorna before Havok came on the scene. In the early days, he pursued Zelda without it being a competition with other guys. Early on, he wasn't competing with anyone for Opal. When he macked on Kitty, there was no one he was competing with. I don't think it was ever about competition. I do agree that it's very easy to read his romances as being him trying to get a girlfriend because he feels he should have a girlfriend, though I don't think any of them were intended to be read that way, and I think it's a reading that's at least somewhat based on an existing assumption that he's gay.

    Though really, my biggest problem with it is purely from a narrative standpoint. It's a big enough reveal that I feel like Bendis should've had some foreshadowing of it ahead of time. I know that plenty of people in the real world never dropped any hints about it and their coming out was a big surprise to everyone who knew them and all that. But dammit, this isn't the real world, it's fiction, and in fiction, things get foreshadowed. As it is, it feels like Bendis made a completely spur-of-the-moment decision to do it, and I feel like that was a poor way to go about it. It needed foreshadowing. Things that wouldn't have meant anything on an initial reading of the series, but on a re-reading, would have people going, "Oh, hey, yeah! I can see what that was getting at now!" Really, that's just how pretty much any story should be. Little threads being laid out as the story progresses, rewarding multiple reads by having more that the reader can pick up on. Little threads laid as the story goes along that seem to mean one thing at the time but turn out to mean something else later on. Bendis failed to do that with Iceman being gay, and that's a big, disappointing writing failure. That's sincerely my only actual problem with the reveal.

  5. #50
    Mighty Member NexusTenebrare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiamatty View Post
    I saw a few people bringing up the "Lance" panel when Iceman first came out. And I've other panels mentioned. And not a single one of them was the least bit compelling. (Emma joking about him becoming an interior decorator, for example.)

    It's fine with it just being "a feeling." I never really got that vibe from Iceman, but then again, I've never cared about Iceman. I will say that about the only romance he's had that I bought was with Opal. And that was only during X-Factor - once X-Factor ended, the relationship really stopped mattering, and was ended as soon as they remembered it existed. Which was a shame. Other than that, I actually do agree that there was a real vibe of him wanting a girlfriend because he was supposed to have a girlfriend. I can definitely see that. I don't agree with it being about competitiveness. He started pursuing Lorna before Havok came on the scene. In the early days, he pursued Zelda without it being a competition with other guys. Early on, he wasn't competing with anyone for Opal. When he macked on Kitty, there was no one he was competing with. I don't think it was ever about competition. I do agree that it's very easy to read his romances as being him trying to get a girlfriend because he feels he should have a girlfriend, though I don't think any of them were intended to be read that way, and I think it's a reading that's at least somewhat based on an existing assumption that he's gay.

    Though really, my biggest problem with it is purely from a narrative standpoint. It's a big enough reveal that I feel like Bendis should've had some foreshadowing of it ahead of time. I know that plenty of people in the real world never dropped any hints about it and their coming out was a big surprise to everyone who knew them and all that. But dammit, this isn't the real world, it's fiction, and in fiction, things get foreshadowed. As it is, it feels like Bendis made a completely spur-of-the-moment decision to do it, and I feel like that was a poor way to go about it. It needed foreshadowing. Things that wouldn't have meant anything on an initial reading of the series, but on a re-reading, would have people going, "Oh, hey, yeah! I can see what that was getting at now!" Really, that's just how pretty much any story should be. Little threads being laid out as the story progresses, rewarding multiple reads by having more that the reader can pick up on. Little threads laid as the story goes along that seem to mean one thing at the time but turn out to mean something else later on. Bendis failed to do that with Iceman being gay, and that's a big, disappointing writing failure. That's sincerely my only actual problem with the reveal.
    Well that and the fact you don't care about Iceman. Which you keep bringing up while having long-winded discussions on why you don't like his outing.
    People who don't care about someone don't keep harping on them.
    Go back in the thread and see how many times I discuss my dislike of Angela.

    As for foreshadowing. Not every writer uses the exact same narrative devices. Nor should they.
    To people who actually cared about Iceman and thought he was gay all along, there has been plenty of foreshadowing already over the years.

  6. #51
    Extraordinary Member t hedge coke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NexusTenebrare View Post
    Wouldn't race being a social construct make it more likely to be able to 'develop over time'? If it's not a hard and set thing, then it stands to reason that it is more fluid and thus can change.
    Anyway, I'm not expert on the Dolezal case, but from what little I gathered it seemed like she identified as another race. I don't see why being transracial couldn't be an actual thing.
    Race, culturally, can develop and does. On an individual level, though, I think race and ethnicity are much more about your place in society and both genuine and anticipated reactions to you and yours, and similar dynamics.

    I know Fear of a Black Hat is ancient, now, but in these situations I always think of the guy who was done with race and cut that single about how he's a human being. Fine. You're human now. But if everyone else sees you as black, then for that society... but at the same time, coming from completely outside as an adult...

    I have the same problem with people who identify as trans, but their reason for IDing as a woman is because "they want to feel protected" or they're scared and woman get comforted. "Women get all the benefits." And, to a lesser degree, "Men get beat up less." Because I am putting a heavy emphasis in terms of race, gender, and sexuality onto social existence, but I think that sexuality, itself, come much more internally, affected by our bodies themselves, whereas gender and ethnicity are essentially cultural and community-based.

    Not that we don't see bisexuals being "politically gay" or homosexuals pretending to be bi or straight. We can't know what's in someone's heart or mind, but sexuality seems less performative in its basic drives.
    Last edited by t hedge coke; 12-22-2015 at 02:42 AM.
    Patsy Walker on TV! Patsy Walker in new comics! Patsy Walker in your brain! And Jessica Jones is the new Nancy! (Oh, and read the Comics Cube.)

  7. #52
    Extraordinary Member t hedge coke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiamatty View Post
    But using that "Lance" panel as "evidence" of anything is one of the most ridiculous things ever. It was a joke.
    I didn't use it as evidence of homosexuality. I used it as an example of the issue of Bobby's sexuality snowballing over the course of forty years. It was an ongoing point, a point returned to, yes, many times with jokes, by him (Lance) or at his expense ("job interior decorating").

    We still don't have "proof" that he's gay. We have Jean's assertion and his confirmation. Even if he has a series of homosexual encounters of a graphic kind, we won't have proof, because he can be brainwashed, under the influence of a magic sword, agreeing because he's repressed and lonely and wants to agree...
    Patsy Walker on TV! Patsy Walker in new comics! Patsy Walker in your brain! And Jessica Jones is the new Nancy! (Oh, and read the Comics Cube.)

  8. #53
    Ultimate Member Fokken's Avatar
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    Top 3





    followed by MCU honorable mention: Jose in Agents of Shield

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reality View Post
    I mean he has two at all times, one takes dominance when the other doesn't. There's always Banner lurking in Hulk and vice versa. That's what a chimera is- someone with two concurrent sets of DNA.
    Then based on what you've pointed out wouldn't that make Peter Parker a chimera too?

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZNOP View Post
    Then based on what you've pointed out wouldn't that make Peter Parker a chimera too?
    No, he doesn't transform. He would just have one altered set of genetics, not two or more.

  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reality View Post
    No, he doesn't transform. He would just have one altered set of genetics, not two or more.
    Wait a minute... Then, other transforming (I.e., She Hulk) Gamma powered (spawned) humans are Chimeras too, right?
    Last edited by ZNOP; 12-22-2015 at 10:00 AM.

  12. #57
    Endangered Member Reality's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZNOP View Post
    Wait a minute... Then, other transforming (I.e., She Hulk) Gamma powered (spawned) humans are Chimeras too, right?
    That would be logical. Though Banner was specifically experimented on by his father genetically, so they probably aren't. I'm working off the Ultimate explanation for the science behind his powers, because it was explained better than elsewhere. In that Banner's unstable genetics were the result of his self experimentation leaving him with two genomes trying to overcome each other permanently. 616 Banner's likely are just in flux between multiple points on the spectrum between Hulk and Banner. She-Hulk probably has that without the psychological disconnect. And someone like Abomination now only has the "Hulk" type genetic code. Biologically speaking none of them would really be human anymore. But genetics don't work the same in the Marvel Universe, so it's all just speculation for fun really.

    ANYWAY- this is irrelevant to the discussion of Starhawk, as it's really the multiple personalities/people contained in one body that is the thing. Starhawk isn't trans because Starhawk is two cis people. Their sex always aligns with their gender, as they physically switch when the other trakes control.
    Last edited by Reality; 12-22-2015 at 06:22 PM.

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reality View Post
    That would be logical. Though Banner was specifically experimented on by his father genetically, so they probably aren't. I'm working off the Ultimate explanation for the science behind his powers, because it was explained better than elsewhere. In that Banner's unstable genetics were the result of his self experimentation leaving him with two genomes trying to overcome each other permanently. 616 Banner's likely are just in flux between multiple points on the spectrum between Hulk and Banner. She-Hulk probably has that without the psychological disconnect. And someone like Abomination now only has the "Hulk" type genetic code. Biologically speaking none of them would really be human anymore. But genetics don't work the same in the Marvel Universe, so it's all just speculation for fun really.
    ANYWAY- this is irrelevant to the discussion of Starhawk, as it's really the multiple personalities/people contained in one body that is the thing. Starhawk isn't trans because Starhawk is two cis people. Their sex always aligns with their gender, as they physically switch when the other trakes control.
    You'll get no argument from me on that note -- I did point out (earlier in this thread) that Aleta and Stakar Ogord where originally two separate and married beings -- I just found the (Chimera) discussion of the Banner and Hulk persona(s) a more interesting topic.

    Although, now I'll have to go dig out my "long boxes" of Hulk and find the issue(s) regarding Brian Banner genetically experimenting on his son Bruce as a child.
    Last edited by ZNOP; 12-22-2015 at 08:21 PM.

  14. #59
    Endangered Member Reality's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZNOP View Post
    You'll get no argument from me on that note -- I did point out (earlier in this thread) that Aleta and Stakar Ogord where originally two separate and married beings -- I just found the (Chimera) discussion of the Banner and Hulk persona(s) a more interesting topic.

    Although, now I'll have to go dig out my "long boxes" of Hulk regarding Brian Banner genetically experimenting on his son Bruce as a child.
    It was retconned in with Hulk: Season One, I think. They kind of merged all his origins. I liked the book, but I think I prefer the gamma bomb without the rest. It also made Betty Ross a military police commander, which was cool. The art was great!

  15. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reality View Post
    It was retconned in with Hulk: Season One, I think. They kind of merged all his origins. I liked the book, but I think I prefer the gamma bomb without the rest. It also made Betty Ross a military police commander, which was cool. The art was great!
    Thanks for the update... I can skip the long page-by-page search now that I know your referring to a retcon.
    Last edited by ZNOP; 12-22-2015 at 08:30 PM.

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