Dan Slott Killed Peter Parker - This Time For Good

[rward777]

At least as permanent as any writer often makes it.

[PhantomStranger]

I thought being the little guy making a difference and ending up being a guy with huge potential and heart of a king(Black Panther) made him relatable? Peter is like Luke Skywalker a nobody(Compared to other force sensitives) ending up as a somebody and bigger than he anticipated.

IMO The Blue Eyed Thing is better as the knock down/ hard on his luck/get up again hero concept.

Take it up with Peter's creator, Stan Lee. He's consistently said for decades that Peter Parker is the "hard luck hero", the "everyman" hero.

If readers want a 1%er to "relate to" - more accurately, "dream about being" - then Iron Man is a few titles over to the left.

[Phantom Roxas]

I don't know if the failure is totally on him. Peter's company could get bushwacked out of nowhere, he loses everything through no real fault on his part. Or maybe he does screw everything up somehow. Maybe he has to make a choice.

There'll be a reversal of fortune, sure, but not quite sure how much of the blame will ultimately fall on Peter's shoulders. Or at least, how much will fall fairly on him.

Sorry that this is coming about a week late. After I had written my post, I went to go get into the Christmas celebrations. That's been over now, but I don't want to leave you hanging. Anyway, you're right, how much would be Peter's fault, if any, can vary, and if it he has to make a choice, then if anyone were to be at fault, it could be whoever put him in the position where such a choice would be forced on him.

[cyberhubbs]

Sorry that this is coming about a week late. After I had written my post, I went to go get into the Christmas celebrations. That's been over now, but I don't want to leave you hanging. Anyway, you're right, how much would be Peter's fault, if any, can vary, and if it he has to make a choice, then if anyone were to be at fault, it could be whoever put him in the position where such a choice would be forced on him.

Hah. All good. I know folks had Christmas stuff to do. Christmas and Star Wars.

[Zevad]

C'mon, what's wrong with Spider-Man evolving as a character?

Getting married? Writers said that's not the character they're used to and love.
Business man? Fans say he's unrecognizable anymore, not the one we relate to.

Not everyone is a winner.
At least we can still relate to him in his pre-Superior stories.

And a reminder: "We age, Peter Parker stopped aging a decade or so ago." On that front, he stopped being the every man we grew up with.

This "EVERY MAN" thing was all propaganda. Peter Parker was NEVER a everyman. At FIFTEEN he created a formula for a substance that's as strong as steel and stretchable and could adhere to items. He created miniature devices to store and shoot that webby substance of his. And sewed up a suit on par with the best COSPLAY outfits. And created a portable emp device to fight Vulture.

Peter was never a every man.

He did have every man problems.

Peter looking back was a social outcast because he had low self esteem and didn't interact right with people. Socially awkward.

And Peter also dealt with every day problems. Bills, Girls, job issues, rent, etc...

Here we could say. "Wow this is a genius. Someone who could be on Tony Stark and Reed Richards level but he can't get his crap together. But he tries. But even when he wins, he loses."

Then we got the illusion of change. He got out of highschool. He got into college. Then they relized what a cash cow he was and put full breaks on Peter and wouldn't let him age out of college. Then Stan wanted to get more female readers for the Newspaper strip and decided to marry the newspaper Spidey off to Mary Jane and Jim Shooter wanted some corporate synergy and rushed the marriage into the comics.

As for the marriage.

Eh.

I'm so indifferent to it and cannot fathom why a chunk of Spidey fans are so obsessed with it. Obsessed to an unhealthy level in some cases.

Really scary unhealthy.

Shudder.

The marriage..was..boring. Only JMS, JM DeMatties, and a few others got it right. Otherwise it was CHORE. A CHORE I tell you to read through the relationship details with Peter and MJ. People like that Peter was "maturing" growing up with them. BUT YOU CAN'T DO THAT WITH A COMIC BOOK CHARACTER MAN! ILLUSION OF CHANGE. That status had to get reset at some point. They took to long and did it in such an idiotic matter that it burned a lot of fans.

I for one like that Peter is finally working at his potential and beyond. I'm glad he's not wasting his talents with a job at Bugle or being a teacher.

It's new. It's different. It's growth.

I like it.

[Daniel22]

I'd like to point out a segment of readership that hasn't been brought up. While certainly many readers like and relate to struggling, "Parker Luck" Peter, other readers actually find it HARD to relate to that aspect. I am one of those people. I've never been socially awkward, I didn't have a hard time of it in school, and now I am a successful and confident adult. I could never connect to the parts of Peter that kept failing, or more accurately, getting shorted due to his responsibilities as Spider-Man. I couldn't understand why a brilliant person couldn't become financially secure, the way I was able to. I was always waiting and expecting for him to reach his potential. As the years went by, and he didn't, while I was moving upwards in my own life, the disconnect only grew.

The new direction has changed all that. I know I love to see him finally blossom and succeed on a larger scale. I can relate to his current situation much better. Not that I am a billionaire CEO/hero/genius inventor, of course. And none of the above statements of my life are intended to be arrogant or bragging, but just facts. But as a competent, successful adult, I feel more attached and closer to this version of Peter than I have to any versions in a while.

[Vortex85]

I'd like to point out a segment of readership that hasn't been brought up. While certainly many readers like and relate to struggling, "Parker Luck" Peter, other readers actually find it HARD to relate to that aspect. I am one of those people. I've never been socially awkward, I didn't have a hard time of it in school, and now I am a successful and confident adult. I could never connect to the parts of Peter that kept failing, or more accurately, getting shorted due to his responsibilities as Spider-Man. I couldn't understand why a brilliant person couldn't become financially secure, the way I was able to. I was always waiting and expecting for him to reach his potential. As the years went by, and he didn't, while I was moving upwards in my own life, the disconnect only grew.

The new direction has changed all that. I know I love to see him finally blossom and succeed on a larger scale. I can relate to his current situation much better. Not that I am a billionaire CEO/hero/genius inventor, of course. And none of the above statements of my life are intended to be arrogant or bragging, but just facts. But as a competent, successful adult, I feel more attached and closer to this version of Peter than I have to any versions in a while.

I can definitely agree with this. The awkward, down on your luck aspect is too overplayed. It worked in the beginning during the teenage years for a little while, and it works in small doses and phases, but any more than that and it starts to become less and less relatable and more sad and pitiful. I always related to Peter with some measure of success in his life, and having both something to cherish and somethign to lose.

If Peter goes back to having nothing it takes away from the drama. Peter can't die, we know that, but he can lose something in his life that we readers all appreciate, and that is the most scary part for the reader.

Essentially I think Parker Industries is basically replacing MJ in a way, during this phase of Peter's life, in that it's something of great importance to Peter that is central to his heart and it's something many readers see as progress and success for the character that they won't want to get destroyed.

[Daniel22]

I can definitely agree with this. The awkward, down on your luck aspect is too overplayed. It worked in the beginning during the teenage years for a little while, and it works in small doses and phases, but any more than that and it starts to become less and less relatable and more sad and pitiful. I always related to Peter with some measure of success in his life, and having both something to cherish and somethign to lose.

If Peter goes back to having nothing it takes away from the drama. Peter can't die, we know that, but he can lose something in his life that we readers all appreciate, and that is the most scary part for the reader.

Essentially I think Parker Industries is basically replacing MJ in a way, during this phase of Peter's life, in that it's something of great importance to Peter that is central to his heart and it's something many readers see as progress and success for the character that they won't want to get destroyed.

I truly believe that comic readership gets totally misrepresented and mischaracterized most of the time. I know way more successful, competent adult readers of comics than I know emotionally stunted, socially awkward readers. Sure, some of those adults USED to be stereotypically "geeky" but they grew up and into themselves. Also, many of the very things that made them outcasts and unpopular are now the things that allow them to have great jobs and wonderful wives. The old idea that the social structure of high school gets completely flipped later in life holds true, much of the time. I see the current direction of Spidey mirroring that. It's a neat take on the "nerds win in the end" idea.

Interesting idea on the MJ/PI angle. I hadn't really given that much thought, but it makes sense. Especially since some people (although I am not one of them) feel as though any romantic relationship Peter enters into is an automatic "dead end'. PI has no limitation, imagined or otherwise. It also opens up SO many story avenues; practically a limitless amount, really.

[PhantomStranger]

I'd like to point out a segment of readership that hasn't been brought up. While certainly many readers like and relate to struggling, "Parker Luck" Peter, other readers actually find it HARD to relate to that aspect. I am one of those people. I've never been socially awkward, I didn't have a hard time of it in school, and now I am a successful and confident adult. I could never connect to the parts of Peter that kept failing, or more accurately, getting shorted due to his responsibilities as Spider-Man. I couldn't understand why a brilliant person couldn't become financially secure, the way I was able to. I was always waiting and expecting for him to reach his potential. As the years went by, and he didn't, while I was moving upwards in my own life, the disconnect only grew.

You're one of the fortunate ones then. Most people know plenty of Peter Parkers: very bright, hard-working, honest, etc but just can't catch a break. Every time they get a bonus, the car breaks down. They get a raise, but their insurance premium goes up even MORE. Marries the proverbial "girl next door" and has marriage problems.

It's what makes Peter heroic. He has a shed-load of problems in his normal life. It would be so incredibly easy for him to just say "Frak it" to the extra burden of protecting New York City (and he has done that several times at low points in his life). Not being Spidey would make things so much simpler for him.

But he perseveres. When he does walk away, he always walks back. He can't give up on his own internal moral standard. "With great power comes great responsibility..." He has to be the hero, no matter what price that extracts from him.

Being a mini-Tony lifts his burden. Now he has a nice life as Peter. He doesn't struggle. He doesn't pay a price for his heroism.

It's wrong. Fundamentally wrong. Spider-fans know this, because they know Peter Parker and what makes him tick. So does his creator.

Stan says it. The fans know it. That should be the end of it.

I'm very happy you are doing well. But (as you yourself note), you've always been one of the Fortunate, and the world you experience isn't like that of the majority of us. You've apparently never had life kick you right in the slats and keep kicking you when you're down.

The only way this storyline makes sense is if it ultimately turns Peter away from honoring his duty as Spider-Man and something colossally terrible happens. Whose Uncle Ben/Aunt May will pay the price this time?

Interesting idea on the MJ/PI angle. I hadn't really given that much thought, but it makes sense. Especially since some people (although I am not one of them) feel as though any romantic relationship Peter enters into is an automatic "dead end'. PI has no limitation, imagined or otherwise. It also opens up SO many story avenues; practically a limitless amount, really.

And they've all been done - probably done better - over in Iron Man.

What really bothers me about the successful, moneyed, etc heroes like Iron Man (and now Peter), is that they're so shallow and fake. They are essentially economic versions of "Mighty Whities" - call them "Mighty Rich-ies". Stars of their own personal reboots of "Dances with Normal People". The only character from that set that doesn't come off with that taint is probably Batman, and that's because it's abundantly clear that "Bruce Wayne" is just a mask Batman wears to further his own purposes.

[Ravin' Ray]

Being a mini-Tony lifts his burden. Now he has a nice life as Peter. He doesn't struggle. He doesn't pay a price for his heroism.

I'm not quite so sure about that. As I mentioned in the ASM #5 thread, Johnny's advice to him seems to foreshadow that he will face a crisis where his being CEO of Parker Industries and his role as Spider-Man will come to a head. He won't stop having struggles, just different struggles.

[jimishim12]

Take it up with Peter's creator, Stan Lee. He's consistently said for decades that Peter Parker is the "hard luck hero", the "everyman" hero.

If readers want a 1%er to "relate to" - more accurately, "dream about being" - then Iron Man is a few titles over to the left.

Everything zahad said proves your post is just an opinion.

[Agent Z]

This "EVERY MAN" thing was all propaganda. Peter Parker was NEVER a everyman. At FIFTEEN he created a formula for a substance that's as strong as steel and stretchable and could adhere to items. He created miniature devices to store and shoot that webby substance of his. And sewed up a suit on par with the best COSPLAY outfits. And created a portable emp device to fight Vulture.

Peter was never a every man.

He did have every man problems.

Peter looking back was a social outcast because he had low self esteem and didn't interact right with people. Socially awkward.

And Peter also dealt with every day problems. Bills, Girls, job issues, rent, etc...

Here we could say. "Wow this is a genius. Someone who could be on Tony Stark and Reed Richards level but he can't get his crap together. But he tries. But even when he wins, he loses."

Then we got the illusion of change. He got out of highschool. He got into college. Then they relized what a cash cow he was and put full breaks on Peter and wouldn't let him age out of college. Then Stan wanted to get more female readers for the Newspaper strip and decided to marry the newspaper Spidey off to Mary Jane and Jim Shooter wanted some corporate synergy and rushed the marriage into the comics.

As for the marriage.

Eh.

I'm so indifferent to it and cannot fathom why a chunk of Spidey fans are so obsessed with it. Obsessed to an unhealthy level in some cases.

Really scary unhealthy.

Shudder.

The marriage..was..boring. Only JMS, JM DeMatties, and a few others got it right. Otherwise it was CHORE. A CHORE I tell you to read through the relationship details with Peter and MJ. People like that Peter was "maturing" growing up with them. BUT YOU CAN'T DO THAT WITH A COMIC BOOK CHARACTER MAN! ILLUSION OF CHANGE. That status had to get reset at some point. They took to long and did it in such an idiotic matter that it burned a lot of fans.

I for one like that Peter is finally working at his potential and beyond. I'm glad he's not wasting his talents with a job at Bugle or being a teacher.

It's new. It's different. It's growth.

I like it.

You went from "Peter can't mature because of comics" (never mind that there are comic characters that mature just not from the big 2) to "I like Slott evolving Peter".

And I don't see why some readers are so obsessed with keeping their favorites frozen in a bubble. That strikes me as just as unhealthy.

[Spidey_Legend]

The "Parker Luck" was funny in his High School days.

As an adult it's ridiculous and makes the character pathetic.

I like the new direction written by Slott.

[Zevad]

You went from "Peter can't mature because of comics" (never mind that there are comic characters that mature just not from the big 2) to "I like Slott evolving Peter".

And I don't see why some readers are so obsessed with keeping their favorites frozen in a bubble. That strikes me as just as unhealthy.

I don't mind change. But this is comics. Not real life. Peter always has to be young and his prime. Certain aspects have to remain in a bubble while others can be switched out, replaced, and eventually come back in a new form.

Peter was not always, as one poster pointed out, in a shed load of personal problems. That got over-exaggerated over the years to a ridiculous point. Peter wasn't always mired in personal problems. But it got to such a point the guy became a pathetic loser. Hell he was homeless for a couple of issues in the late 1990s.

As a reader you don't want to read the same stuff. But as a fan you realize that these characters have to remain in a bubble. Only certain things can be changed. Only certain things can be changed permanately and others temporarily.

Peter is always going to be in a bubble. He has to. So he can only evolve to a certain point...and yes at some point he has to get reset back to SOME status quo.

It's the way of comics. If you want a beginning, middle, and end best bet is to go indie. But with corporate heroes like Spider-Man and Superman. Expect change and reset. Change and reset.

That's the cycle.

It will always be the cycle.

Until it isn't.

That's why it's called "Illusion of change."

It's an illusion. One that can shatter at any moment and make the character go back ten steps. I'm used to it. I accept it. I know this Parker Industries is a temporary status quo. I'm hoping we get at least five years out of it before Peter is set back into a new status quo.

Just as long as it's not him back at the Bugle. Or as a teacher.

The man's a scientist! He should be sciencing!

[Daniel22]

You're one of the fortunate ones then. Most people know plenty of Peter Parkers: very bright, hard-working, honest, etc but just can't catch a break. Every time they get a bonus, the car breaks down. They get a raise, but their insurance premium goes up even MORE. Marries the proverbial "girl next door" and has marriage problems.

It's what makes Peter heroic. He has a shed-load of problems in his normal life. It would be so incredibly easy for him to just say "Frak it" to the extra burden of protecting New York City (and he has done that several times at low points in his life). Not being Spidey would make things so much simpler for him.

But he perseveres. When he does walk away, he always walks back. He can't give up on his own internal moral standard. "With great power comes great responsibility..." He has to be the hero, no matter what price that extracts from him.

Being a mini-Tony lifts his burden. Now he has a nice life as Peter. He doesn't struggle. He doesn't pay a price for his heroism.

It's wrong. Fundamentally wrong. Spider-fans know this, because they know Peter Parker and what makes him tick. So does his creator.

Stan says it. The fans know it. That should be the end of it.

I'm very happy you are doing well. But (as you yourself note), you've always been one of the Fortunate, and the world you experience isn't like that of the majority of us. You've apparently never had life kick you right in the slats and keep kicking you when you're down.

The only way this storyline makes sense is if it ultimately turns Peter away from honoring his duty as Spider-Man and something colossally terrible happens. Whose Uncle Ben/Aunt May will pay the price this time?



And they've all been done - probably done better - over in Iron Man.

What really bothers me about the successful, moneyed, etc heroes like Iron Man (and now Peter), is that they're so shallow and fake. They are essentially economic versions of "Mighty Whities" - call them "Mighty Rich-ies". Stars of their own personal reboots of "Dances with Normal People". The only character from that set that doesn't come off with that taint is probably Batman, and that's because it's abundantly clear that "Bruce Wayne" is just a mask Batman wears to further his own purposes.

I kept the personal parts of my post as vague as possible; I didn't want to make it about me. I perhaps didn't do a good job of conveying my thoughts, though. I was speaking more towards the "gets back up" part rather than the "gets knocked down" part of the equation. I actually have been knocked down hard and often. I agree, most people have faced hardships and struggles. As they say, everyone has their own sob story. To me, many people use those struggles as reasons for their stagnation or failures. That's where I felt separated from Peter, eventually. I understand the whole dynamic where the more he puts into Spidey, the less there is for Peter. I can even relate to it, as many professionals face the same dilemma with career/social life decisions. I just think that problems have expiration dates, and past a certain point problems turn into excuses. I'm sure you know people who have been saying the same things for years: "I would finish school, but...." or "Ever since ----- happened", or "I would, but you know I can't------". Peter started to feel like those people to me. I just started to become tired of seeing him encounter the same problems, which eventually became excuses. Especially when in everyday life I see people who overcome SO much, seeing Peter struggle with the same problems made him feel less-than the people in my real life. The new direction has changed all that for the better.