Batman and Robin Eternal #13 Preview / Discussion

[godisawesome]

And here's where I get myself in trouble. Cassandra Cain is a big problem for the Batman Office and DC precisely because of all those things people find fascinating about her. She is, as has been said above, an extreme character with extreme strengths and weaknesses, especially as she is ostensibly a "normal" human physiologically and genetically. That makes her very difficult to fit into an environmental like Gotham that, for all of its oddness, is supposedly a non-metahuman environment and thus has limits on what it can accommodate, especially over an extended period. Writers find that they can do a few really interesting things with her, but rapidly run into brick walls. Someone who can beat anyone this side of Diana Prince in an unarmed fight while being unable to carry on the simplest of ordinary conversations is of very limited use in the Gotham milieu. Yes, I know they gradually changed both of those things during her original run, as they had to. And it did not meet with universal acclaim for precisely the reason that many felt the writers were monkeying around with exactly the things that made Cass unique and fascinating.

Thus, I suspect most of the mishandling of the character, the bad story moves and eventually the reluctance to use her at all, arises more from frustration than malice. She is simultaneously too powerful and too limited for the Batman Universe. There is a reason that characters like Bruce, Dick,and Barbara survive, as they were the core of the sub-universe they inhabit, that environment grew around them, and they fit into it on ways that don't present so many long-term challenges, at least not challenges of the kind Cass poses.

I suspect that before Cass can really flourish she is going to have to pull a Damian. That is, she will have to leave Gotham for a more exotic environment more in keeping with her own background and abilities.

I don't quite agree with your assessment as I read it right now; I think Cass's biggest weakness is not neccesarily that she doesn't fit Gotham's style, but that she tends to require strong involvement of her supporting cast on an issue to issue basis. A lot of her early issues read perfectly well with the non-meta setting that was in vogue then, and that was arguably at her most dominant in fighting and most baleful in communication. But even then she kind of needed interaction with Bruce or Babs to help illustrate her growth and internal conflict in individual issues. And we still get a lot of praise for her interactions with Stephanie Brown, and the vast majority of her solo run had her able to communicate her thoughts to the audience in a pretty readable way.

I think what really frustrated the editorial office was that she is unique enough that when they tried to hammer her into an abhorrent place, they got mocked mercilessly for it, and she was easily the most public failure of editorial decrees during that comparatively dark period for the Batbooks. Several of their OYL plans wound up failing in one way or another for the sidekicks of the Batfamily; nobody liked the attempt at killing Dick and the replacement story featuring fashion runway smack downs between Jason and Dick, but nobody really forgave them for so failing at Cass's evil turn and it kind of turned the rest of Beechen's a robin run into a miniature Dork Age. DC editorial template for Gotham was supposed to be radically different after OYL, with Jason as Nightwing and a dead Dick alongside an evil Cass. When the first two broke down completely, they tried to stick with the last, and nobody gave it the time of day.

And I think the biggest issue that she had, being exiled to limbo alongside Steph, is tied into what I think is a lack of understanding and trust for the Batgirl brand among editorial. No one high up really complained about having Babs get fridged in Killing Joke, Cass's Genesis seems to have been the result of dropping a plan for Helena, the Evil!Cass failed hard, Steph's turn was inauspicious and mostly hand waved thanks to editorial fiat, Babs' return to the suit kind of shunted off two characters who had fanbase and seemed accompanied by literal blacklisting of them, and some idiot thought he should try and fire Gail Simone without any warning.

Would you mind explaining how you think Cass's abilities didn't make her fit into Gotham, with some specific scenarios? Because even at her most OP, she always seemed like a great character to plug into team stories.

[MidTierHero]

Cass' series did just fine. But the writers wanted a WASP Batgirl, and booted Cass.

It's not that complicated

So basically, she'd already be trained and putting herself in danger without Bruce, as opposed to him planning on endangering minors.

Another thing that always confused me about Cass's fans is their need to routinely put down, subtly or not, the characters whose coattails Cass rode the majority of her series.

[Godlike13]

That's just because the powers that be don't care for her character

Like Dick didn't have to deal with that?

Yeah, no.

Cass' series did just fine. But the writers wanted a WASP Batgirl, and booted Cass.

It's not that complicated

Thats not quite how it went. They tried Cass again after her solo, it got no traction, and then they moved on to someone else.

[HLOTS]

The issue with BRE is, again, writers claiming this book celebrating the importance of Robin when it serves as an introduction point for character who have nothing to do with Robin nor the villains having any actual connection to a Robin. Matter of fact, seems DC is once again trying to REPLACE the concept of Robin by having other characters occupy the role. That and this book reads as a Cassandra Cain/Harper Row wet dream. It be 100% fine If it didn't nerf the Robins in various aspects, make them look redundant, and have the gall to act like Harper Row is thing big deal to the point when her origins and personality is a combination of what we've seen before in the Robins and the embodiment of desperation of writers wanting her to be relevant, and still claim it celebrates Robin. Might as well drop the "Robin" in "Batman & Robin Eternal" and rename it "Batman Eternal 2". Or...just Eternal since Batman role is minimum since he's flashback only.

They say they want to celebrate Robin, but it's seems to me DC goes out of its way to make the Robin mantle obsolete. Damian is completely absent. Jason and Tim are background extras. And Dick, well he's just a stand in for Batman because Bruce is in La la land right now and can't be in the story.

[godisawesome]

Like Dick didn't have to deal with that?



Thats not quite how it went. They tried Cass again after her solo, it got no traction, and then they moved on to someone else.

...eh, they gave her a miniseries with the same writer who was infamous for having performed her turn to evil without having read any of her solo series. And he continued to retcon some details for the character while writing her, and by most estimates wrote her out of character still. And it stood out because Chuck Dixon was doing his usual highly competent Outsiders story featuring the character, where she read fine.

And most of all, it ended right before the post-RIP shift for all the characters, which I think clearly demonstrated that the Batgirl mantle was still having an unorthodox handling. When you launch a series called "Oracle: The Cure" while simulataneously delaying the Batgirl book that was supposed to launch alongside Red Robin and Batman and Robin, then launch the Stephanie Brown Batgirl series with initially zero effort towards addressing the transition...

I understand that some of the Cass fans are a little bit...prickly, but please take pity on them. Some of us are a little crazy thanks to the blacklisting. Not all of us, mind you, but there is a comparison to be made between the Cass and Steph fanbase and the Wally West fanbase.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Another thing that always confused me about Cass's fans is their need to routinely put down, subtly or not, the characters whose coattails Cass rode the majority of her series.

Except that Cass never really rode Babs' coattails. She was an entirely different character, and I'd point out that she was the first one to star in a solo Batgirl series, not Babs.

Like Dick didn't have to deal with that?

Nope. Dan D wanted him dead, but Johns and every other writer advocated on her behalf, hence sparing his life.

Thats not quite how it went. They tried Cass again after her solo, it got no traction, and then they moved on to someone else.

Not exactly. They gave Cass' mini to the same writer who butchered her character in Robin OYL, who in turn used it to try to justify his series, and when it didn't pan out (imagine that), they shoved her into limbo and refused to allow writers to use her, even to up until Nu52

[MidTierHero]

Except that Cass never really rode Babs' coattails. She was an entirely different character, and I'd point out that she was the first one to star in a solo Batgirl series, not Babs.

Thanks for proving my point.

Cass's series wouldn't have been nearly as successful as it was if she wasn't in the role of Batgirl (a role that Barbara Gordon made popular), if she wasn't so heavily associated with the Bat family, and if Batman wasn't essentially co-starring in the early issues. So yeah, she rode those coattails into the sunset.

Yet some of her more vocal fans never seem to miss a chance to put the rest of the Bat characters down, or insist that she didn't benefit from their association. It's bizarre.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Thanks for proving my point.

Thank you for my daily dose of circular logic and strawmen

[MidTierHero]

Thank you for my daily dose of circular logic and strawmen

And thank you, for the lesson in revisionist history.

[The Cool Thatguy]

And thank you, for the lesson in revisionist history.

That's a rather irony statement, as you edited your comment well after I replied.

Thanks for proving my point.

Cass's series wouldn't have been nearly as successful as it was if she wasn't in the role of Batgirl (a role that Barbara Gordon made popular), if she wasn't so heavily associated with the Bat family, and if Batman wasn't essentially co-starring in the early issues. So yeah, she rode those coattails into the sunset.

Yet some of her more vocal fans never seem to miss a chance to put the rest of the Bat characters down, or insist that she didn't benefit from their association. It's bizarre.

Batgirl is only made popular by Batman. So while I'd agree that Cass rode his coat tails to a degree, she did not ride Babs'.

Babs' Batgirl and Cass' Batgirl are two entirely different creatures, in terms of backstory, appearance and character. And I'd question how popular Babs' Batgirl was, as the role went unclaimed for what, a decade? before Cass came around. Hell, at least Jason Todd and Tim Drake could fool the casual reader into thinking they were Dick, Cass never had that advantage.

And while Babs' Batgirl was certainly more well known, one live action TV show, two cartoons and a movie (kinda), there's not much indication that that translated into comics sales.

Both characters depended on Batman yeah, but Cass went farther and overall, can support herself better, character wise, than Babs.

[MidTierHero]

Bab's Batgirl series hasn't had to rely on Batman as a co-star. Cass needed Batman and Oracle as permanent cast members. That wasn't an accident - Batman and Oracle were a large part of Cass's solo success. When they stopped showing up, the series floundered.

Which is fine, but it then seems strange to see some of her fans put Batman, Babs, abd the rest of the Bat family down whenever they get the chance - and at the same time insist she's vital to the Bat family.

[godisawesome]

Bab's Batgirl series hasn't had to rely on Batman as a co-star. Cass needed Batman and Oracle as permanent cast members. That wasn't an accident - Batman and Oracle were a large part of Cass's solo success. When they stopped showing up, the series floundered.

Which is fine, but it then seems strange to see some of her fans put Batman, Babs, abd the rest of the Bat family down whenever they get the chance - and at the same time insist she's vital to the Bat family.

Please remember that "some" qualifier you use. I mean, I'm a major Cass fan to, but I try not to put down any Batgirl, with the exception that I do believe that Oracle Babs getting to walk again would have been a considerably more impressive threat than New 52 Batgirl. And the putting down of other characters isn't that unusual; whenever the Robin fans start sniping at each other, inevitably people start arguing that Dick's Robin career isn't nearly as important or enjoyable as his Nightwing career, or that nobody ever liked Jason, or that Tim's the bland forgettable one, or Damian's the Gary Stue.

[lucius121]

I really enjoyed this issues, for me it actually moved the story forward in a real way, and I really enjoyed seeing Batman meet cass.. (It's unfortunate that this discussion has once again been derailed by trolls and obsessive posters with an axe to grind.) I do feel that David Cain is a lot weaker in this incarnation than he was pre- 52, and seriously how quick did he get that metal hand? I mean did he have one in storage just in case or?

[gwangung]

Thanks for proving my point.

Cass's series wouldn't have been nearly as successful as it was if she wasn't in the role of Batgirl (a role that Barbara Gordon made popular), if she wasn't so heavily associated with the Bat family, and if Batman wasn't essentially co-starring in the early issues. So yeah, she rode those coattails into the sunset.

Yet some of her more vocal fans never seem to miss a chance to put the rest of the Bat characters down, or insist that she didn't benefit from their association. It's bizarre.

I can't make heads or tails of this.

[Dzetoun]

I can't make heads or tails of this.

I think that MidTierHero believes Cassandra derived benefit from association with the extremely popular Bat characters. MidTierHero disagrees, I take it, with anyone who argues that Cassandra as a character did not need such a support system, or that she was harmed or inhibited by it.

I don't see anything very controversial about the first statement. Any new character will benefit by association with established and well-liked predecessors. I do understand that this can be stifling if dragged on too long. But, in fairness, it is difficult to see how Cass could have been introduced and given a story foundation without a prolonged relationship with the Bats, and thus without "riding" to an extent, on their existing popularity. But the same could be said of Stephanie Brown or Damian Wayne.