Batman and Robin Eternal #13 Preview / Discussion

[heyevaxx]

Assigning fault is very hard in comics. Sometimes it's easier for me to just say what I like and don't like.

E.g. I strongly disliked the new direction DC took Cassandra Cain post-OYL. And, I am overall very happy with Cassandra Cain's return to DC canon. No one can debate or question these personal statements I made, unless they're Martian Manhunter or Professor X. No doubt not everyone will agree with them, but that's fine, different strokes for different folks.

Apply this to Dick's role in BRE:
[user X] says: I'm unhappy that Dick isn't more prominently featured in a weekly titled Batman and Robin Eternal when Dick was the original dang Robin!
[user Y] says: I think the panel time and story threading for the BRE characters is fine though some (or one) character might shine more for other reasons than writing.

Specifically, I see Cassandra Cain as a more extreme and strangely faceted character than Dick Grayson. That's *my* opinion and I'm not claiming she's better or worse. I do enjoy her more but that's just me.

I'm not super up on his background but I think Dick was pretty well adjusted before his parent's were murdered and he had a fantastic youth up to then as a circus acrobat. After the murder he was adopted by a super rich guy who happened to be a super crime fighter! How great is that?! And Bruce took him on missions and trained the heck out of Dick.

Fast forward to today and Dick seems to be the most mature and well balanced Robin. He can hold a conversation on "work" about tracking down and defeating bad guys plus he can have a coffee or beer and talk sports or current events. He can (does?) date and has friends. He's a Catwoman level acrobat, a very good fighter, a superb detective, and is excellent at using technology. He negatives are his parents were murdered and now with BRE we see there are Batman job confidence/heir issues.

How about the new Cass Cain? Well, her traumatic childhood is so extreme it shouldn't be called childhood. Maybe "ongoing, hyper-abusive psychological and physical torture" would be more apt but that's a mouthful! Cass at 16 is a tier1 fighter IMO and could probably at least hang with Batman. While David Cain doesn't get much fighting respect on this forum I think he's a great fighter and she can hang with him. Cass is at least a decent acrobat, can use a grappling gun, and throw a dagger well. She also has some level of non-fighting skills cause she somehow got the Argus jet to fly over the mega-pit.

Does Cass have negatives? OMG yes! Dick (and Bruce for that matter) had his parents murdered in front of him... and that's it! Cass doesn't know who her mother even is and her father is a titanic parental monster. Not to mention David Cain is a mass murderer, probably in the hundreds. Cass is haunted by her (at least one) execution of a woman in Gotham (Harp's mom?). She's already demonstrated PTSD when Harper touched her hair in a non-stressful situation. And Cass probably has PTSD from her youth: being made to watch the bloody execution of dozens or 100+ people by your father as a little kid? Unbelievable.

Cass can't hold a normal conversation. At all. With anyone. About anything. She's said Mother 3 times, Where once, Children twice, and No. That's it in 13 issues. It's very, very likely she can't read any language, not even Najahoe! She has *no* social experience before she fled her father and thus almost no social skills. Talk about sports? She probably doesn't even know what sports are! Not to mention she can barely speak at all. In fact, thought it's not explained yet, I don't think new Cass even *thinks* with language like other comics characters and we do IRL. She likely sees shapes, motion, expressions and thinks in that way.

These are 2 very different people and they're gonna "shine" differently that's for sure. And this is in the eye of the beholder.

But I feel that Cass has a lot of extreme stuff in her makeup, much more than Dick who I like. But Cass Cain popping more than Dick for some readers isn't surprising for me and I don't think it necessarily anyone's "fault." Cass is a child of 1999 and 2015 while Dick is from 1940. Everything is more "extreme" now though I'd argue that Cass has the most extreme background of any Batfam member, ever.

But that's my opinion and others will think otherwise. And some may think that she's the most extreme but that's no reason she should dominate BRE. I don't think that but different strokes.

PS - I'm loving BRE! This despite some weird art making the Robins look the same, Steph being MIA, and Cass being gut-kicked then candlesticked then held/gut-punched. These are small complaints compared with the overall treatment of Cass' return (best New52 treatment by far for me), the Az intro, most of the flashbacks, Jason has had nice moments, and I'm digging Dick as the mature leader of this motley Batfam crew trying to follow their MIA leaders orders.

[heyevaxx]

Dick have gotten most of the panel time in the story so far between the flashbacks and the present the problem is that nothing interesting have been reveled and his place in the story is more or less the detective and less action driven, where as with Cass and Haper (to a lesser extent) are having there history fleshed out which is more interesting to read. And with the fall out that Cass may have killed Haper's mother there is drama and fall out to look forward to, where as the things that Dick are in pursuit of; who is the "Robin" that mother made and did Batman kill someone (which no one believes) seems to be of less consequence and feels like a secondary plot rather than the main plot of the book.

^^this^^

Excellent points ZuLuLu. No one thinks any established character is being killed off or Batman will be shown to be a killer. How Batman got in and out that situation will be interesting but that's it. I do think there's some lingering tension over Batman being unsatisfied with Dick or wanting a different heir. But most likely he's just acting with Mother to get her to reveal enough so he can defeat her.

The Cass stuff is new. We know old Cass but that's just a template. How DC follows the old Cass template is new and interesting. I think they're doing a really good job paying homage to Old Cass while changing some things to fit her into this story and current canon. I don't mind them ditching her Ra's and LoA stuff since that was introduced much later in her run. They could still tie her to that stuff but it's not needed. And Shiva is likely not her mother because she's too young. I'm more concerned that Cass has strong female relationships like the old days with Babs, Steph, and Shiva but time will tell.

The thing is even though it's Batman and Robin Eternal, there's only so much that can be new or changed about Dick/Jason/Tim especially if they are currently in other books. Cass is all new to this canon and she's only in BRE. That gives the writers a lot more flexibility with her and thus she might "shine" more.

[DGraysonWorldsGreatestSpy]

Cass v Dick, was never the problem but just a huge distraction amongst fans. You can have all these characters shine without any need for degrading one another. Batman and Robin did a great job wit Dick and Damian, Court of Owls with the Bat family, Batman Inc. etc. In this series as Robin Dick is out of the loop and struggles with confidence and currently has been playing from behind with a USB drive that provided no real information on what they are dealing with or what Batman did years ago. There is no problem with what Cass has done and the only real time there was a real conflict between Dick and Cass was when they first met and that had more to do with him acting OOC arrogantly, people like to bring up Midnighter and the JL powered Paragon without including the narratives that led to that point. Dick v. Midnighter was not a battle forum one on one fight and the only reason he beat Midnighter was due to the Hypnos, the Paragon with JL powers had a missing heart and he received assistance to take it down. Batman and Robin Eternal has its strengths and weakness like every story.

[Nite-Wing]

An innocuous comment about Dick not really needing to be in this story becomes a big deal
Well ideally Dick already has a solo so he is getting double the focus by pulling overtime in this book. He hasn't really been so relevant to the story as more focus has been put upon Cass and Harper
Rightly so as this is the only title they have and were said to be the main characters.

Maybe this title was supposed to be a celebration of Robin but I doubt that now since Harper and Cass have pretty much pushed the Robin elements to the side.
Even the flashbacks on this title are getting shorter and shorter

[Hilden B. Lade]

Well, there's only like 13 issues left so I imagine that the cram is gonna start big-time pretty soon

[DGraysonWorldsGreatestSpy]

Well, there's only like 13 issues left so I imagine that the cram is gonna start big-time pretty soon

^This reminded me that we have also already seen a flash forward where everyone is fighting across the world while Dick finds an Ice Palace and laments on how Bruce could let all this happen. I think they jumped around with time lines too much and left too many mysteries going on at once. Hopefully they tie these stories together better and let every hero shine.

[Aahz]

An innocuous comment about Dick not really needing to be in this story becomes a big deal
Well ideally Dick already has a solo so he is getting double the focus by pulling overtime in this book. He hasn't really been so relevant to the story as more focus has been put upon Cass and Harper
Rightly so as this is the only title they have and were said to be the main characters.

But a weekly Batfamily Cross over Series, is usually a bigger thing than an ongoing solo series (and is pushing out 4 to 5 times more of issues per month).
And in Batman Eternal Bruce was for example the main protagonist, despite bringing Spoiler and Spectre back, having Harper become Blue Bird and Bruce having several ongoing series parallel.

Maybe this title was supposed to be a celebration of Robin but I doubt that now since Harper and Cass have pretty much pushed the Robin elements to the side.

Robin Wars is much better job as celebration of Robin than B&RE.

[bat_girl_cc]

Whose fault is it?

No-one's! Cass stands out more, because she's more awesome!

[bat_girl_cc]

It's about some mistake Batman made and Dick has to find out (since Batman apparently just put the whole story on a USB drive), but it appart from this he isn't realy connected with mother in the way he was connected with the Court of Owls.

Dick might be in the flashbacks but he is totally out of the main plot of the flashbacks, which is about what happened between mother and Dick.

Cass on the other Hand is much closer connected with Mother and seems to be the one how knows what is going (even if she can't tell anybody) and is more cenral to the story. You could totally tell this story without Dick but not without Cass.

And Based on the solicitations the will come something about Harper Background too.

Cass is connected to The Mother? lol, The Mother didn't even knew about her! David "made Cass" without The Mother knowing it, Cass is to The Mother what the aliens are to the pope, The Mother has no interest in Cass whatsoever and according to last issue she has no interest in David as well, despite being a incredible and helpfull associate he was just a mean to a end for The Mother.
Which sucks, because in the previous continuity, Cass was meant to become somthing great, and now there is no big purpose behing her upbringing, at least not that we know about yet.

[bat_girl_cc]

But a weekly Batfamily Cross over Series, is usually a bigger thing than an ongoing solo series (and is pushing out 4 to 5 times more of issues per month).
And in Batman Eternal Bruce was for example the main protagonist, despite bringing Spoiler and Spectre back, having Harper become Blue Bird and Bruce having several ongoing series parallel.

Robin Wars is much better job as celebration of Robin than B&RE.

Robin wars have received ton's of critics so far, by the large majority of reviewers, many people won't even read the last issue...wheras B&RE only received critics on issues 4 and 5 interestingly enough those issues were the ones where Cass and Harper were less featured, lol.

[JayPursuits]

The issue with BRE is, again, writers claiming this book celebrating the importance of Robin when it serves as an introduction point for character who have nothing to do with Robin nor the villains having any actual connection to a Robin. Matter of fact, seems DC is once again trying to REPLACE the concept of Robin by having other characters occupy the role. That and this book reads as a Cassandra Cain/Harper Row wet dream. It be 100% fine If it didn't nerf the Robins in various aspects, make them look redundant, and have the gall to act like Harper Row is thing big deal to the point when her origins and personality is a combination of what we've seen before in the Robins and the embodiment of desperation of writers wanting her to be relevant, and still claim it celebrates Robin. Might as well drop the "Robin" in "Batman & Robin Eternal" and rename it "Batman Eternal 2". Or...just Eternal since Batman role is minimum since he's flashback only.

[Aahz]

Cass is connected to The Mother? lol, The Mother didn't even knew about her! David "made Cass" without The Mother knowing it, Cass is to The Mother what the aliens are to the pope, The Mother has no interest in Cass whatsoever and according to last issue she has no interest in David as well, despite being a incredible and helpfull associate he was just a mean to a end for The Mother.
Which sucks, because in the previous continuity, Cass was meant to become somthing great, and now there is no big purpose behing her upbringing, at least not that we know about yet.

But Cass is still the one who has a connection to mother and knows the most about Mother. The other characters have no connection to mother at all sofar.

Robin wars have received ton's of critics so far, by the large majority of reviewers, many people won't even read the last issue...wheras B&RE only received critics on issues 4 and 5 interestingly enough those issues were the ones where Cass and Harper were less featured, lol.

But Robin Wars is still about the concept of Robin, and features all the Robins as protagonists.
B&RE has nothing to do with Robin at all.
And when you say that the weakest issues are the one where Cass and Harper were less featured, that proves even more that B&RE is not a story about the Robins or Batman.

[MidTierHero]

No-one's! Cass stands out more, because she's more awesome!

That must be why Grayson has his own series, and Cass has been in limbo for years.

[The Cool Thatguy]

That must be why Grayson has his own series, and Cass has been in limbo for years.

That's just because the powers that be don't care for her character

[AUScowboy]

This series was way better than I expected, twice the quality of the last Eternal. After half a decade almost, it's really nice to see DC start fleshing out the actual new 52 Batman universe..