Batman and Robin Eternal #13 Preview / Discussion

[Dzetoun]

That's just because the powers that be don't care for her character

And here's where I get myself in trouble. Cassandra Cain is a big problem for the Batman Office and DC precisely because of all those things people find fascinating about her. She is, as has been said above, an extreme character with extreme strengths and weaknesses, especially as she is ostensibly a "normal" human physiologically and genetically. That makes her very difficult to fit into an environmental like Gotham that, for all of its oddness, is supposedly a non-metahuman environment and thus has limits on what it can accommodate, especially over an extended period. Writers find that they can do a few really interesting things with her, but rapidly run into brick walls. Someone who can beat anyone this side of Diana Prince in an unarmed fight while being unable to carry on the simplest of ordinary conversations is of very limited use in the Gotham milieu. Yes, I know they gradually changed both of those things during her original run, as they had to. And it did not meet with universal acclaim for precisely the reason that many felt the writers were monkeying around with exactly the things that made Cass unique and fascinating.

Thus, I suspect most of the mishandling of the character, the bad story moves and eventually the reluctance to use her at all, arises more from frustration than malice. She is simultaneously too powerful and too limited for the Batman Universe. There is a reason that characters like Bruce, Dick,and Barbara survive, as they were the core of the sub-universe they inhabit, that environment grew around them, and they fit into it on ways that don't present so many long-term challenges, at least not challenges of the kind Cass poses.

I suspect that before Cass can really flourish she is going to have to pull a Damian. That is, she will have to leave Gotham for a more exotic environment more in keeping with her own background and abilities.

[MidTierHero]

That's just because the powers that be don't care for her character

Maybe they didn't think she was an interesting or distinctive character.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Maybe they didn't think she was an interesting or distinctive character.

They may have thought that, but then, these are the guys who are (figuratively) in love with Hal Jordon. So it's not as if they have refined tastes

[The Cool Thatguy]

And here's where I get myself in trouble. Cassandra Cain is a big problem for the Batman Office and DC precisely because of all those things people find fascinating about her. She is, as has been said above, an extreme character with extreme strengths and weaknesses, especially as she is ostensibly a "normal" human physiologically and genetically. That makes her very difficult to fit into an environmental like Gotham that, for all of its oddness, is supposedly a non-metahuman environment and thus has limits on what it can accommodate, especially over an extended period. Writers find that they can do a few really interesting things with her, but rapidly run into brick walls. Someone who can beat anyone this side of Diana Prince in an unarmed fight while being unable to carry on the simplest of ordinary conversations is of very limited use in the Gotham milieu. Yes, I know they gradually changed both of those things during her original run, as they had to. And it did not meet with universal acclaim for precisely the reason that many felt the writers were monkeying around with exactly the things that made Cass unique and fascinating.

Thus, I suspect most of the mishandling of the character, the bad story moves and eventually the reluctance to use her at all, arises more from frustration than malice. She is simultaneously too powerful and too limited for the Batman Universe. There is a reason that characters like Bruce, Dick,and Barbara survive, as they were the core of the sub-universe they inhabit, that environment grew around them, and they fit into it on ways that don't present so many long-term challenges, at least not challenges of the kind Cass poses.

I suspect that before Cass can really flourish she is going to have to pull a Damian. That is, she will have to leave Gotham for a more exotic environment more in keeping with her own background and abilities.

Cass as a character is just fight. Being a combat machine in Gotham, frankly, is only a hindrance to an unskilled writer.

Joker, Scarecrow, Mad Hatter, Riddler, Two-Face, Black Mast and a million others that I can name are no real physical threat to Batman. It's their schemes, their plots that make them dangerous.

In terms of physical threats, there's still Firefly, Killer Croc, Mr. Freeze, Deadshot are all threats without being skilled martial artists. Hell, get a little more obscure and use characters like Echo.

That's to say nothing of environmental threats (lure Cass into trapped buildings).

Cass' character is best served developing Batman's more neglected espionage Rogues gallery of hired killers and professional criminals.

[heyevaxx]

@Dzetoun
Do you have links for interviews where DC writers have said something like Cass is hard to "fit into an environmental like Gotham that, for all of its oddness, is supposedly a non-metahuman environment and thus has limits on what it can accommodate"?

I'm not calling you out in disagreement, your statement makes sense. I'm just wondering if there are hard facts to back it up since I've thought this very thing myself.

Regardless of Cass' past up and downs, new Cass' fighting is detuned vs old Cass.

I know some Grayson fans will gripe since she easily handled him in BRE01 but there's quite a list of new Cass "lows" when it comes to fighting:

1) Dick's right hand closed on her neck in BRE01, maybe she let that happen so she could throw him

2) Orphan kicked a door that knocked Cass over or his kick of the door also hit her

3) It's hard to tell but it looks like the back of Cass' suit got slashed by Hood. There were also some blood drops in the air but not on Cass or in later panels.

4) Jason grabbed Cass' neck/collar with his left hand just before Grayson intervened

5) Orphan grabbed Cass from behind and then threw her

6) The lead ballerina gut-kicked Cass

7) The ballet mistress snuck up behind Cass and knocked her out with a candlestick

8) I'm assuming a still dazed Cass was held from behind and gut-punched

9) David Cain grabbed and subdued her (albeit with his robo-hand)

While this may not seem like "lows" to readers unfamiliar with Cass or those who don't like her, they are very low.

Old Cass would have beaten Dick *and* Jason without being touched and maybe with just one hit each. Orphan would never surprise Cass from behind and throw her. Why? To quote Boromir: "One does not simply touch Cassandra Cain in combat." Seriously, it was uncommon for old Cass to be touched, let alone hit.

And the ballet fight? Old Cass would have cleaned out that whole room without any help from Harp or Dick.

Others may not see it but I think Cass' fighting has been detuned. So much so, she needed Dick to save her and Harper in BRE08. Also, she may have beaten Orphan in BRE13 but Dick and Harp helped out with the little Bat-taser thingees.

Do you all still think that new Cassandra's fighting is too overpowering? That new Cass can't be written for or at least not written well? Forget old Cass for this, new Cass is what's canon now.

I think BRE has proved that DC was not ignorant that old Cass' fighting prowess was too much in some cases, at least for the Gotham scene.

They've lowered her fighting ability (though she's still tier1) and they've worked her into the story just fine.

Keeping the sins or mistakes of old Cass separate from what's going on with new Cass is the key.

[Aahz]

Cassandra Cain is a big problem for the Batman Office and DC precisely because of all those things people find fascinating about her. She is, as has been said above, an extreme character with extreme strengths and weaknesses, especially as she is ostensibly a "normal" human physiologically and genetically. That makes her very difficult to fit into an environmental like Gotham that, for all of its oddness, is supposedly a non-metahuman environment and thus has limits on what it can accommodate, especially over an extended period. Writers find that they can do a few really interesting things with her, but rapidly run into brick walls.

I think Cassandra and to a lesser extend Damian have in general the that they are less adaptable to different kinds of stories (from super campy to extremely dark and from down to earth to completly over the top) than the other Batfamily members. And that their background stories make it more complicated to integrate them in "Alternate Universes" (including Movies, TV series and Computer Games).

[Aioros22]

@DzetounOld Cass would have beaten Dick *and* Jason without being touched and maybe with just one hit each. Orphan would never surprise Cass from behind and throw her. Why? To quote Boromir: "One does not simply touch Cassandra Cain in combat." Seriously, it was uncommon for old Cass to be touched, let alone hit.

Old Dick and Jason didn`t have the combat Reading abilities they now have.

[heyevaxx]

Old Dick and Jason didn`t have the combat Reading abilities they now have.

That's not relevant to my point.

New Cass has less fighting ability than old Cass.

BRE has proven so far that she can be worked into a Gotham story just fine.

The old issue (if it really was an issue with DC writers) of Cass being too good of a fighter for Gotham stories is gone.

At least so far with new Cass in BRE.

[MidTierHero]

Seems like Cass's fans insist she should have a vital place in the Gotham street level scene, yet get apopleptic when someone with less than decades of martial arts training so much as lays a hand on her in a fight. You can't have it both ways, and it's likely that DC got tired about all the complaining.

Batman is one of DC's best fighters and he'll occasionally struggle with a random thug without his fans burning Dan DiDio in effigy.

[Nite-Wing]

I think Cassandra and to a lesser extend Damian have in general the that they are less adaptable to different kinds of stories (from super campy to extremely dark and from down to earth to completly over the top) than the other Batfamily members. And that their background stories make it more complicated to integrate them in "Alternate Universes" (including Movies, TV series and Computer Games).

Both are unrealistic characters there's nothing holding them back but writer preference
Damian won't show up in Batman because Snyder doesn't like using him
Cass will probably show up a lot because of how he always wanted to use her

[The Cool Thatguy]

Seems like Cass's fans insist she should have a vital place in the Gotham street level scene, yet get apopleptic when someone with less than decades of martial arts training so much as lays a hand on her in a fight. You can't have it both ways, and it's likely that DC got tired about all the complaining.

Batman is one of DC's best fighters and he'll occasionally struggle with a random thug without his fans burning Dan DiDio in effigy.

Yeah, no.

Cass' series did just fine. But the writers wanted a WASP Batgirl, and booted Cass.

It's not that complicated

[Aahz]

Both are unrealistic characters there's nothing holding them back but writer preference
Damian won't show up in Batman because Snyder doesn't like using him
Cass will probably show up a lot because of how he always wanted to use her

It's not so much a problem with the current main universe, more with Alternate Universes and continuities.
You could integrate for example alternate versions of Dick, Jason, Tim or Steph quite easily into "Batman: Earth One" without changing the personalities or their backgrounds drastically. With Cass or Damian it would be more difficult.

[heyevaxx]

* New Cass is not as good as a fighter as old Cass.
* New Cass is being worked into the BRE story very nicely.
* The prospects for new Cass to work well on the Gotham scene are good since she's a great fighter but not as good as old Cass.

[The Cool Thatguy]

It's not so much a problem with the current main universe, more with Alternate Universes and continuities.
You could integrate for example alternate versions of Dick, Jason, Tim or Steph quite easily into "Batman: Earth One" without changing the personalities or their backgrounds drastically. With Cass or Damian it would be more difficult.

Of all the sidekicks, I'm hard pressed to see how Cass is the hard one to integrate into AU.

She has training and motivation separate from Bats, and is harder to reason with than most because of her trouble with communicating.

So basically, she'd already be trained and putting herself in danger without Bruce, as opposed to him planning on endangering minors.

[Aahz]

Of all the sidekicks, I'm hard pressed to see how Cass is the hard one to integrate into AU.

She has training and motivation separate from Bats, and is harder to reason with than most because of her trouble with communicating.

So basically, she'd already be trained and putting herself in danger without Bruce, as opposed to him planning on endangering minors.

In case of my example with "Batman: Earth One". It's a series thats much more down to earth than the main continuity, her body reading doesn't really fit and without it a major part of her character is missing.
And the other don't necessary have to become sidekicks, Barbara Gordon in "Batman: Earth One" and "Beware the Batman" never became Batgirl (at least sofar) but was still recognizable as Barbara Gordon.