STAR WARS: THE FORCE AWAKENS - Can we talk about Finn?

[justinslot]

Meh Windu was fine but he didnt have an arc and was just there he is seconady...Lando was fine I mean people complain Black dude is a criminal but come on so was Han not an issue in my book.

Is that the complaint people have about Lando? But Han was a criminal too! And Lando was a better criminal than Lando--Lando's basically an unregulated small business owner, Han's this desperate, job-to-job type with no stability. And they both become generals and they both help to blow up a Death Star.

I feel like Finn is a little too close for comfort to the traditional Hollywood black sidekick role...he's the comic relief, he blunders into the action. They gave him a character detail--Stormtrooper sanitation?--that makes no sense, so then you think, why? Because he's a black sidekick? Like, with Rey they blatantly, in-your-face subvert the damsel in distress role. I'm not sure anything's being subverted with Finn.

[Kusanagi]

Is that the complaint people have about Lando? But Han was a criminal too! And Lando was a better criminal than Lando--Lando's basically an unregulated small business owner, Han's this desperate, job-to-job type with no stability. And they both become generals and they both help to blow up a Death Star.

I feel like Finn is a little too close for comfort to the traditional Hollywood black sidekick role...he's the comic relief, he blunders into the action. They gave him a character detail--Stormtrooper sanitation?--that makes no sense, so then you think, why? Because he's a black sidekick? Like, with Rey they blatantly, in-your-face subvert the damsel in distress role. I'm not sure anything's being subverted with Finn.

I don't know being a love interest for the protagonist White woman is a pretty big subversion imo. Hollywood's still a little iffy on interracial couples and here's the biggest movie (possibly ever) strongly suggesting it. Even if you consider Finn solely comic relief (which I feel is a mistake) that they are suggesting the lead white female is in love with him is a GIGANTIC subversion of traditional Hollywood.

[mace11]

Here are some more recent sci-fi films starring black men in lead roles/co-leads roles/or major roles.
I have not seen all of these films yet,so you could say maybe a few of these are major supporting roles like Rhodey Rhodes in the ironman films,of course the actors playing this character in the ironman film is listed as a major starring role if their role is not the main lead role in these films too.


The Book of Eli
Denzel Washington, Gary Oldman, Mila Kunis

Repo Men
Jude Law, Liev Schreiber, Forest Whitaker

Attack the Block
John Boyega, Nick Frost, Jodie Whittaker, Luke Treadaway

Transformers: Dark of the Moon
Shia LaBeouf, Rosie Huntington-Whiteley, Tyrese Gibson


After Earth
Will Smith, Jaden Smith


The Colony
Laurence Fishburne, Bill Paxton, Kevin Zegers


G.I. Joe: Retaliation
Dwayne Johnson, Bruce Willis, Channing Tatum


Pacific Rim
Idris Elba, Charlie Day, Charlie Hunnam


Riddick
Vin Diesel, Katee Sackhoff, Karl Urban
(some say vin diesel is black,others say is he racially brown,but i put this here anyway)



Big Hero 6
Ryan Potter, Scott Adsit, Jamie Chung, Damon Wayans Jr., Génesis Rodríguez, T. J. Miller


The Signal
Brenton Thwaites, Olivia Cooke, Laurence Fishburne, Sarah Clarke


Star Wars: The Force Awakens
Daisy Ridley, John Boyega, Oscar Isaac

Not that recent or that recent but in 2000's
Ghosts of Mars
Ice Cube, Natasha Henstridge, Jason Statham



The Adventures of Pluto Nash
Eddie Murphy, Randy Quaid, Rosario Dawson


Star Trek Nemesis
Patrick Stewart, Jonathan Frakes, Brent Spiner, LeVar Burton, Tom Hardy



The Time Machine
Guy Pearce, Samantha Mumba, Mark Addy, Orlando Jones, Jeremy Irons


Dreamcatcher
Morgan Freeman, Thomas Jane, Jason Lee


The Matrix Reloaded
Keanu Reeves, Carrie-Anne Moss, Laurence Fishburne


The Matrix Revolutions
Keanu Reeves, Carrie-Anne Moss, Laurence Fishburne



I, Robot
Will Smith, Bridget Moynahan, Alan Tudyk


Déjà Vu
Denzel Washington, Paula Patton, Val Kilmer


I Am Legend
Will Smith, Alice Braga, Salli Richardson-Whitfield

Transformers
Shia LaBeouf, Megan Fox, Josh Duhamel, Tyrese Gibson, John Turturro

Babylon A.D.
Vin Diesel?, Michelle Yeoh


Jumper
Hayden Christensen, Samuel L. Jackson, Rachel Bilson


G.I. Joe: The Rise of Cobra
Dennis Quaid, Channing Tatum, Joseph Gordon-Levitt, Marlon Wayans



Push
Chris Evans, Dakota Fanning, Camilla Belle, Djimon Hounsou




To see more open link below.
List of science fiction films
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o..._fiction_films

[Superlad93]

100% agreed, dismissing Lando while giving Han/Chewie a pass doesn't make any damn sense.

Just to be clear I'm not saying Lando was any worse than Han or Chewie. I'm just saying he was all we got in those 3 films. Hell to be honest with you I really really liked Lando. Though he had a solid character arc that gives off the idea of a complex person. His comic is also fantastic.

[Totoro Man]

This is obviously my own opinion. But in regards to Maul and Fett, I don't find either interesting. One is a plot device and the other is an action figure. I'm not impress with these sorts of things. Their following isn't based off of their real development in the films but rather their development in the collective minds of every 6 year old boy ever.

I can respect that. I didn't really know where you were coming from. when you explain it like that it makes more sense.

Boba Fett did make for a pretty awesome action figure, though! ;-)

and, after reading your posts here it reminds me that Lucas has repeatedly demonstrated that he's more interested in character designs than characterization!

I'm always going to remember watching that DVD extra about how they created the character design for General Grievous. it seems like they spent exponentially more time creating the look of each character than they spent on their backstory, narrative arc, and personality.

[RobinFan4880]

I can respect that. I didn't really know where you were coming from. when you explain it like that it makes more sense.

Boba Fett did make for a pretty awesome action figure, though! ;-)

and, after reading your posts here it reminds me that Lucas has repeatedly demonstrated that he's more interested in character designs than characterization!

I'm always going to remember watching that DVD extra about how they created the character design for General Grievous. it seems like they spent exponentially more time creating the look of each character than they spent on their backstory, narrative arc, and personality.

That's true of most movies though. There is limited time, so only a handful of character get any true depth.

With Lucas, the movies were only ever part of the story, especially for the prequels. He relied on other media (books, games, comics, shows, etc.) to help build characters up. What you see in the films is only the tip of the iceberg. General Grievous was fleshed out quite a bit in the Clone Wars Micro-Series. It built the character up as this menacing demon whom jedi feared.

[mace11]

This could have been made into a big screen movie,of course there were two or three tv movies of this show,but the way it ended and how really good it was,it was best it remain on tv.
I always wanted to see a black man as the main lead/captain or commander on a star trek show first anyway before star wars,and it happen.








Star trek tends to work better as a tv show on average then a big screen movie anyway.
By the way star trek is coming back on the smaller screen.

[JaggedFel]

Yeah but I bet CBS gives us another White Male Captain...despite the fact we have had 3 (Kirk is not double counting)

[Gaelforce]

Hmmm..

Why is it okay for a guy who has never seen let alone picked up a lightsaber and who (supposedly) is not using the force able to use one so well? Yes, he lost to a highly trained force user, but Finn was pretty darned competent.

And I see complaints of Rey suddenly being such a good pilot, mechanic and force user, yet a guy who has never once sat in a gunner's chair mastered it in mere seconds, taking out a number of ships and saving the day while Poe and Rey both flew the ships. He's a crack shot with a blaster, yes, but knowing how to point and shoot a hand weapon is nothing like mastering a computer targeting system on a moving ship engaged in a dog fight.

Yet somehow Finn is the 'loser' and Rey the 'Mary Sue?' I'm just not seeing it. Yeah, Rey's the force user/Jedi/Skywalker family member (it is the Skywalker family saga after all; one that has been dominated by men for the past six movies)

I really love Finn and didn't think him at all incompetent or stumbling about. He's a powerful character who goes through the most growth in the film, taking control of his own destiny from the get go. He was brainwashed and didn't have a life, so now he gets to go out in the world and learn how to be a real human being and that is fantastic. No, he doesn't know how to fly or how to fix things as they aren't in his wheelhouse, but I just don't see him as being the comic relief or an ineffectual character.

As to understanding how young black men feel, I do...and I don't. As has been listed elsewhere in this discussion, there have been numerous sci-fi/fantasy films with black male leads/co-leads, and Finn is the driving force behind the story in SW VII.

To compare in SW, if it's of any help, we've had four named roles of some import in the series performed by black men - Lando, Mace, Darth (don't care who was actually under the helmet - the voice makes the character) and Finn versus two women (Leia and Rey).

By comparison, as this is a US made movie, black men comprise about 15% of the population versus women who comprise 50%.

So on the one hand, I do fully understand the way black men feel about wanting to see more representation as heroes on the big screen, but on the other hand, it seems there are just as many if not more male black heroes as there are female heroes (again, see previous post about black male leads). Young black men got to see a kickass black male Jedi Master. Where was the kickass woman Jedi master?

And again I point out - three films, 90 seconds of women other than Leia talking

I stand by my opinion that Finn totally rocks and I loved how the entire story was pretty much Finn's story. It started with him and it followed his actions, his choices and his changes that made the movie great, imo.

[RobinFan4880]

Star trek tends to work better as a tv show on average then a big screen movie anyway.

I'd argue the serialized nature of Star Wars actually does better on TV as well.

[the nomad]

Hmmm..

Why is it okay for a guy who has never seen let alone picked up a lightsaber and who (supposedly) is not using the force able to use one so well? Yes, he lost to a highly trained force user, but Finn was pretty darned competent.

And I see complaints of Rey suddenly being such a good pilot, mechanic and force user, yet a guy who has never once sat in a gunner's chair mastered it in mere seconds, taking out a number of ships and saving the day while Poe and Rey both flew the ships. He's a crack shot with a blaster, yes, but knowing how to point and shoot a hand weapon is nothing like mastering a computer targeting system on a moving ship engaged in a dog fight.

Yet somehow Finn is the 'loser' and Rey the 'Mary Sue?' I'm just not seeing it. Yeah, Rey's the force user/Jedi/Skywalker family member (it is the Skywalker family saga after all; one that has been dominated by men for the past six movies)

I really love Finn and didn't think him at all incompetent or stumbling about. He's a powerful character who goes through the most growth in the film, taking control of his own destiny from the get go. He was brainwashed and didn't have a life, so now he gets to go out in the world and learn how to be a real human being and that is fantastic. No, he doesn't know how to fly or how to fix things as they aren't in his wheelhouse, but I just don't see him as being the comic relief or an ineffectual character.

As to understanding how young black men feel, I do...and I don't. As has been listed elsewhere in this discussion, there have been numerous sci-fi/fantasy films with black male leads/co-leads, and Finn is the driving force behind the story in SW VII.

To compare in SW, if it's of any help, we've had four named roles of some import in the series performed by black men - Lando, Mace, Darth (don't care who was actually under the helmet - the voice makes the character) and Finn versus two women (Leia and Rey).

By comparison, as this is a US made movie, black men comprise about 15% of the population versus women who comprise 50%.

So on the one hand, I do fully understand the way black men feel about wanting to see more representation as heroes on the big screen, but on the other hand, it seems there are just as many if not more male black heroes as there are female heroes (again, see previous post about black male leads). Young black men got to see a kickass black male Jedi Master. Where was the kickass woman Jedi master?

And again I point out - three films, 90 seconds of women other than Leia talking

I stand by my opinion that Finn totally rocks and I loved how the entire story was pretty much Finn's story. It started with him and it followed his actions, his choices and his changes that made the movie great, imo.

I see your argument and you do have some valid points. I think everyone has a valid point which kinda leads me to believe that Episode VII could have been executed a bit better so the response isn't as Polarized as it is. And I saw those posted list of movies with Black sci-fi leads and many of those movies could be argued that they're more along the lines of supporting characters but a handful of them do have legitimate black leads and Female leads mind you.

But I think it's better to keep it limited to Star Wars where both are perhaps a bit under-represented. Although it could be argued again that there are more female Jedi/leads, but you would have to go outside the movies though. You ask where the kickass female Jedi.....go back and look at the Clone Wars. Off the top of my head: Ashoka Tano(She was badass), Asajj Ventress (Sith, true but again awesome female lightsaber wielding character), Shaak Ti, Adi Gallia, Luminara Unduli, Barriss Offee as well as several others.

Whereas, black Jedi, there is only Mace Windu. And Black character in general Lando. The table is still a bit unbalanced.

And really No one, not me at least is trying to take anything away from Rey. Daisy Ridley was awesome and a welcomed addition, it's just a few things that happened here and there in the movie that just didn't gel right for the first outing. To me. This is all just my opinion after all. No one has to agree, this is just how I feel. I still think the script could've been done where everyone walked away feeling satisfied instead of on opposite ends or just dead set in the middle like myself.

I like Finn too. And I'm still invested in his story even though he had problems of his own. I know that his story is far from complete. As is the other 'co-leads'

I'd argue the serialized nature of Star Wars actually does better on TV as well.

Star Wars and Star Trek both work well in either media. They both can go big like the movies and they can go small like TV. That's what makes both two of the greatest series of all times. Instant Classics.

[the nomad]

By the way star trek is coming back on the smaller screen.

Are you being serious? How did I not hear about that. Is Star Trek really coming back?

[PwrdOn]

But I think it's better to keep it limited to Star Wars where both are perhaps a bit under-represented. Although it could be argued again that there are more female Jedi/leads, but you would have to go outside the movies though. You ask where the kickass female Jedi.....go back and look at the Clone Wars. Off the top of my head: Ashoka Tano(She was badass), Asajj Ventress (Sith, true but again awesome female lightsaber wielding character), Shaak Ti, Adi Gallia, Luminara Unduli, Barriss Offee as well as several others.

Whereas, black Jedi, there is only Mace Windu. And Black character in general Lando. The table is still a bit unbalanced.

Those female Jedi were all aliens though, so of course there will be an imbalance when you look it at that way, since nearly all sci-fi aliens will have binary genders but few have a direct analogue for black people, though for what it's worth, at least a couple of them were played by black actresses. They were also all background characters with no spoken lines I can recall, aside from Ahsoka who never appeared in the main film series.

[Majesty]

I see your argument and you do have some valid points. I think everyone has a valid point which kinda leads me to believe that Episode VII could have been executed a bit better so the response isn't as Polarized as it is. And I saw those posted list of movies with Black sci-fi leads and many of those movies could be argued that they're more along the lines of supporting characters but a handful of them do have legitimate black leads and Female leads mind you.

But I think it's better to keep it limited to Star Wars where both are perhaps a bit under-represented. Although it could be argued again that there are more female Jedi/leads, but you would have to go outside the movies though. You ask where the kickass female Jedi.....go back and look at the Clone Wars. Off the top of my head: Ashoka Tano(She was badass), Asajj Ventress (Sith, true but again awesome female lightsaber wielding character), Shaak Ti, Adi Gallia, Luminara Unduli, Barriss Offee as well as several others.

Whereas, black Jedi, there is only Mace Windu. And Black character in general Lando. The table is still a bit unbalanced.

And really No one, not me at least is trying to take anything away from Rey. Daisy Ridley was awesome and a welcomed addition, it's just a few things that happened here and there in the movie that just didn't gel right for the first outing. To me. This is all just my opinion after all. No one has to agree, this is just how I feel. I still think the script could've been done where everyone walked away feeling satisfied instead of on opposite ends or just dead set in the middle like myself.

I like Finn too. And I'm still invested in his story even though he had problems of his own. I know that his story is far from complete. As is the other 'co-leads'





Star Wars and Star Trek both work well in either media. They both can go big like the movies and they can go small like TV. That's what makes both two of the greatest series of all times. Instant Classics.

nailed it.

[Superlad93]

o compare in SW, if it's of any help, we've had four named roles of some import in the series performed by black men - Lando, Mace, Darth (don't care who was actually under the helmet - the voice makes the character) and Finn versus two women (Leia and Rey).

Personal performance aside you simply can't count Vader. James Earl Jones wasn't even credited originally. So that's two. And why aren't you counting Padme Amidala? She fits the bill of named role of some import.
f
But I don't see why this is becoming a competition between black men and all women apparently? I'm not suggesting that Finn rip the spotlight from Rey or something like that. Just that it already seems like they are co leads in this new story, and there seems to be some hints of force sensitivity, so why not make good no this? I'm not seeing the problem. I honestly feel like that's where it's going.

And as for letting Finn have some shine in the first movie action-wise, I don't see how that diminishes Rey at all. I personally enjoyed the film quite a bit the way it was but I wouldn't have said no a action win of pivotal importance for Finn. However as I said before, that's coming later