Why is the "standard" for Robin so high?

[darkseidpwns]

It's not a question of skills or talents but a matter of expectations and roles. Luke,Kate,Bertinelli were and are periphery Bat characters,though it might change for the former 2 eventually it's still how they started and how they are. Time and development will facilitate integration in to the core family should it happen eventually but at the same time there is no guarantee of that either. Duke and Harper are forcing their way in to the core family even though there is no place for them in terms of what they offer story wise or skill wise, no one would have any problem if they existed as side characters. Imo they dont even fit in the periphery family,not with Luke,Kate,Azrael,Bertinelli who between them cover any need for characters like Harper and Duke.

Secondly you have to take in to account the legacy and stories that Dick,Tim,Jason and Damian bring to the table,conversely Luke only had to compete against David,Bertinelli against Wayne and Kate against Kathy. There is a huge qualitative and quantitative difference here,it wasn't particularly hard for either Luke or Kate to show how different(and superior) they were from their predecessors,Duke and Harper are inferior characters retreading the same territory pretending they are somehow on par with those who actually died on the job.

[Nite-Wing]

Batwoman was a soldier and got further training organised yb her father to become a vigilanty, Luke Fox is a world class MMA fighter with graduated from the MIT a year early with two degrees and Helena Bertinelli was after the death of her parents rised and trained by by the top assassins of the mafia.

Harper doesn't have any training but is portrait as if she could keep up with the current version of Tim, Jason and Dick.

Batwoman was a marine who was years out of service and then one night had to be saved by Batman and said I want to do this. That's not exactly a shining resume for her. If people have a problem believing Gordon can be an effective Batman then they should have just as many problems with Kate
Luke Fox I just have no idea how being an MMA fighter translates at all into being a vigilante. If he's accepted than any of the WAR kids should be accepted since all of them only really know how to fight.
Helena that doesn't translate into her being an effective vigilante at all though

The ridiculous standards some people hold these characters to when there is actually very little justify any of them doing what they do is constraining the medium enough. You can even compare this argument to how long it takes to train a GL. A GL is chosen for their potential not how good they actually are immediately
Dick at 12 years old is not the same character as Dick at 21

[darkseidpwns]

One should also take in to account the evolution the Robin role has undergone if one ignores the characters themselves and focus just on the role. You dont go from Damian to Duke,Duke aint next stage material,he's just taking a few hundred steps backwards both in terms of story and talent. His race is literally his only trump card which I personally think was deliberate to get him over,replace him with a white kid and not even his own few fans would give a damn. The next Robin will probably have super powers of some sort,I think there was more to that super power arc in Batman & Robin than meets the eye. Duke and super powers are DC testing the water for now.

[darkseidpwns]

Batwoman was a marine who was years out of service and then one night had to be saved by Batman and said I want to do this. That's not exactly a shining resume for her. If people have a problem believing Gordon can be an effective Batman then they should have just as many problems with Kate
Luke Fox I just have no idea how being an MMA fighter translates at all into being a vigilante. If he's accepted than any of the WAR kids should be accepted since all of them only really know how to fight.
Helena that doesn't translate into her being an effective vigilante at all though

The ridiculous standards some people hold these characters to when there is actually very little justify any of them doing what they do is constraining the medium enough. You can even compare this argument to how long it takes to train a GL. A GL is chosen for their potential not how good they actually are immediately
Dick at 12 years old is not the same character as Dick at 21

Kate became Batwoman NOT Batman,with Batman there is a different set of expectations,Luke became Batwing NOT Robin,Helena became Huntress.No one would give these characters a hard time if they called themselves something else and performed a function that someone else already established doesn't perofrm You are jumbling roles and expectations with power levels. There are no double standards at all.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Why do Robins et all need to be well trained? Several reasons...

First and foremost, they're freakin' kids, going up against sociopaths. The Joker, Killer Croc, Scarecrow and whatever new flavor of the month is killing hundreds. It's a lot easier to ignore child endangerment when said kids have super powers. A lot harder to ignore in the Bat books, especially because they are so low level and often mystery focused (IE, they look close at details).

Dick was physically trained prior to being Robin, Tim was exceptionally intelligent and Cass was Cass. Those who lacked such exceptional qualities (Steph and Jason) were used as examples of why such high standards were needed.

Second, to suspend disbelief. If a bunch of kids with barely any training can hold their own the Court of Owls, Joker, etc...why can't the freakin' cops?

Batman is a vigilant, but Gotham is such a dangerous cesspool that he's given a pass. I can't say that a bunch of barely trained kids being any where near his weight class helps that argument any.

Lastly, just basic internal logic. The threats that Batman faces are some of the most dangerous in the world. He's one of the world's greatest heroes, and his threats are as dangerous as him. Anyone who associates with him is at the same risk, and should be capable of hitting in that weight class.

Granted, internal logic has been dead for a while now. Batman's had more dead Robins than live ones in DC Nu, but no one's ever thought to so much as bring that up...

[Nite-Wing]

Kate became Batwoman NOT Batman,with Batman there is a different set of expectations,Luke became Batwing NOT Robin,Helena became Huntress.No one would give these characters a hard time if they called themselves something else and performed a function that someone else already established doesn't perofrm You are jumbling roles and expectations with power levels. There are no double standards at all.

Well Harper is called Bluebird and people still complain about her doing anything the expectations are all the same regardless of what name you take.
Dick was 12 years old when he first became Robin

He had the training of what's akin to a amateur mma fighter
basic Boxing and Jiu jitsu that was it
That's the standard I hold all characters to not some imaginary elite make believe that some fans subscribe to make inflate what Robin and other characters actually are.

They are very much amateurs when they start out. Any training Batman gave Dick is guaranteed to be inadequate for what they actually do as vigilantes.
The early Batman stories after Robin was introduced wanted to appeal to children so they had an unrealistic character doing unrealistic things
How the fans have morphed this into a super serious thing and has to be taken seriously all the time can be laid at DC's feet. At the same time when DC goes back on this a bit by lightening up the universe and introducing more characters there seems to be even more issues rising from fans not buying people with no "training" doing this.

Is Robin now taken seriously? Yes he is
They no longer wanted Dick to be so young when he became the first Robin
They now compare Robin to a child soldier
People in universe and out are now more inclined to voice their discomfort at seeing a child do these things
They now show how dangerous the activities they do are by killing them off from time to time.

Does any of this increase the standard for who gets to be a vigilante? No
If the writing justifies it that is all that's required

[Aahz]

Batwoman was a marine who was years out of service and then one night had to be saved by Batman and said I want to do this. That's not exactly a shining resume for her. If people have a problem believing Gordon can be an effective Batman then they should have just as many problems with Kate

She didn't just became Batwoman, she trained for two years.

Luke Fox I just have no idea how being an MMA fighter translates at all into being a vigilante. If he's accepted than any of the WAR kids should be accepted since all of them only really know how to fight.

Luke is 23, he is world class MMA fighter who won international tournaments, has probably a genius level intellect, can create his own high tech gadgets and has on top of this a hightech armor that allows him to fly and to become invisible. He is way more suited for the job as some high school kids, how tock some classes in karate or kick boxing.

Dick at 12 years old is not the same character as Dick at 21

But Harper and Duke are treated at the moment as if they were close to the level of the 21 old Dick and not of the 12 year old. Just look how long Tim was around as Robin before he reached that status pre flashpoint.

Dick was physically trained prior to being Robin, Tim was exceptionally intelligent and Cass was Cass. Those who lacked such exceptional qualities (Steph and Jason) were used as examples of why such high standards were needed.

Jasons didn't die because he "lacked exceptional qualities", he died because his mother betrayed him, the Joker was far more brutal than on any of the numerous occasions he took Dick hostage and Batman was to late to save him (and because of the vote of the fans). There are probably dozends of comics were Dick would have died if the Batman would have arrived later or if the villains would have used a more deadly method to kill him.

[darkseidpwns]

Well Harper is called Bluebird and people still complain about her doing anything the expectations are all the same regardless of what name you take.
Dick was 12 years old when he first became Robin

He had the training of what's akin to a amateur mma fighter
basic Boxing and Jiu jitsu that was it
That's the standard I hold all characters to not some imaginary elite make believe that some fans subscribe to make inflate what Robin and other characters actually are.

They are very much amateurs when they start out. Any training Batman gave Dick is guaranteed to be inadequate for what they actually do as vigilantes.
The early Batman stories after Robin was introduced wanted to appeal to children so they had an unrealistic character doing unrealistic things
How the fans have morphed this into a super serious thing and has to be taken seriously all the time can be laid at DC's feet. At the same time when DC goes back on this a bit by lightening up the universe and introducing more characters there seems to be even more issues rising from fans not buying people with no "training" doing this.

Is Robin now taken seriously? Yes he is
They no longer wanted Dick to be so young when he became the first Robin
They now compare Robin to a child soldier
People in universe and out are now more inclined to voice their discomfort at seeing a child do these things
They now show how dangerous the activities they do are by killing them off from time to time.

Does any of this increase the standard for who gets to be a vigilante? No
If the writing justifies it that is all that's required

Harper wears what is essentially the Nightwing suit except with jacket and additionally she's forcing her way in to the "core" family where there is no spot available for her type of character. Moreover there were rumors about Harper becoming the new Nightwing when she debuted with the costume and this was when Dick was getting crapped on and Snyder admitted to creating her because he wasn't allowed to use a certain character or two,the damage was done by then. It doesn't have anything to do with power at all,just the history and Legacy that these characters have come to represent which is too much for characters like Duke and Harper. They're gonna have to be incredibly special and different to overcome the disadvantage.

[Nite-Wing]

Jason was an okay character
He was basically an untrained hoodlum
Batman taught him how to fight
He still got killed

Damian is an unrealistic character
His backstory is about as fictitious as you can get in comics for a normal human
Its enough to justify him being Robin
Its not enough to keep him from dying

You introduce more believable characters like Duke and Harper and the #1 complaint is that they are untrained and should not be so capable.
No amount of experience or "training" will keep a writing from killing any character in comics

[darkseidpwns]

Jason was an okay character
He was basically an untrained hoodlum
Batman taught him how to fight
He still got killed

Damian is an unrealistic character
His backstory is about as fictitious as you can get in comics for a normal human
Its enough to justify him being Robin
Its not enough to keep him from dying

You introduce more believable characters like Duke and Harper and the #1 complaint is that they are untrained and should not be so capable.
No amount of experience or "training" will keep a writing from killing any character in comics

Jason served a role,Damian also served a role,mind you people didn't like Damian dying. Those who liked him for obvious reasons and those who didn't because they felt it took from Jason's character. Harper hasn't served any story,nor has Duke and it's made worse when you consider how popular and acclaimed Snyder's work is a whole. Simply put if Snyder cannot give these characters interesting story lines and traits that set them apart then there is no hope for them,fans will always whine but it is possible for a writer through commitment and story telling to overcome that handicap. Harper isn't gonna become a hit with these Eternal books and neither is Duke with WAR. In fact giving an untested character this treatment is making damn sure he never takes off.

[Godlike13]

Meh, Tim Drake was Robin so the standard isn't that high

[DGraysonWorldsGreatestSpy]

Duke is basically leading his own title now and it is hovering in the low 20's which is not good, Red Hood and Batwoman hang and have hung around those levels but they have built in following. Also Batwing was selling like this and he has been moved to supporting another characters book and Batwoman is awaiting a relaunch. Duke and Harper will have to live on other writers using them as support like Helena B. They have been worked in to the Bat mythos in a way that pushes out characters that had fanbases that already felt their character was not getting pushed. WAR and Harper spread things and just like Tim Drake fans with Damian taking his place and how Jason Todd was received with mixed feeling. A lot of Tim Drake fans were not happy about him getting pushed out as Robin and now was never and official Robin. Some Damian fans don't like how he is ignored in the main Bat Book since coming back to life. How these characters are introduced dictate how they are received. Duke and Harper have only been around for maybe 2 to 3 years and already have created strong opinions in favor and strong in dislike.

Nite-Wing talks about the technical ways Dick, Jason, Tim, and Damian have been introduced and not why they have stuck around. Plenty of characters have been introduced and have struggled to find a place and regulated to obscurity like the recently re-introduced Azrael, Cluemaster, Spoiler, Cass Cain, and David Cain. There is only so much room in books and money to be spent so not every story can focus on everyone. Character with solo's now have built up considerable fan bases that will always ensure they will be kept around or brought back.

Dick was introduced with a plan to write him off if it was not received like so many characters from the Golden Age but his first comic almost doubled the sales of Detective Comics which led to Batman # 1 and the explosion of so many character tied to the Bat world and others in the DC and Marvel Universe. Robin The Boy Wonder no matter how he is viewed in a bad way by some is one of DC's biggest properties and Dick Grayson is very recognizable as he is constantly voted in the top 20 of Comic book characters and has been featured in more comics by DC than anyone except Batman and Superman, also more media than a lot of other characters. Dick has also struggled with getting killed off but has always survived and remade himself to keep relevancy.

Jason was accepted with mixed feeling and had his origin changed 2 to 3 years with in his introduction and was killed off by a controversial vote years later. It to decades for him to return where he had gone from dying because he was betrayed by his own family to being seen as incompetent and spending years as a Murderer, Psycho, with no real direction and has had his book relaunched due to sales. In that time he built up a respected following and his profile is growing in other media.

Tim took time to become Robin and was introduced in a Way that gave respect to the detective skills of Bruce, Dick and Tim himself before he started to become pitted against one another to the point all the Robin keep getting generalized with Dick as the Acrobat, Jason and Street Kid, Tim as the Detective, and Damian as the Reformed Child Assassin. They are all more complex and Tim has suffered because of the generalizations and is now an Arrogant Tech Guru who calls himself the 2nd Greatest Detective and hangs around with the Teen Titans and all there mess. He too has a fan base that feels he deserves better and were already not happy with him becoming Red Robin and he is even weirder now. Tim has been featured in more media also.

Damian was not well received but under Morrison his time as Robin under DickBats changed enough people on their outlook of his character that he was quickly brought back from death due to that following of fans. The New 52 solidified him and he now leads his own solo book and that was after years of partnering with Dick and Bruce who are the two biggest characters in Gotham. Damian has 3 movies with him as a significant character and has strong bonds to Bruce and Dick that will last.

^Those are just the main 4 Robins and not accounting for the Elephant in the Room in Batman, Batgirl, Stephanie, Cassandra Cain, Gordon, Montoya, Batwoman, Azrael etc. Harper and Duke were always going to be received with resistance and the fact they are getting pushed real hard into the main fold does not bode well for success comparable to the other characters mentioned.

[Kurtzberg]

Some of it I think is that the expectations and times are different. I grew up with the the insanity of stuff like Rainbow or Zebra Batman and moon scorpions, all the ridiculous stuff DC eventually wanted ignored because there wasn't much plausible reasons why things like that happened or worked because no one bothered to fill in the details in those days. There was a Comics Code imposed for years to keep things relatively clean and light and simple for kids. It wasn't until the 70's that Batman got anywhere approaching serious, and the 80's things got dark and more realistic. Comics are still fun and silly at times now, but there is a real miasma of "realism" and "being grounded" that permeates the air of this still bizarre unrealistic world. So over time I've been conditioned to expect more and more detail and explanation.
Also, stakes, Jason Todd raised the stakes, this isn't stopping crazy capers so much anymore but a gritty war where children can be brutally murdered. Writers have gone to greater lengths to make the world deeper, darker and more dangerous and explain things more, put more detail and depth into things. Batman and company have become more capable because the threats are bigger and more complex. The Joker is more monstrous then ever.
It's less Adam West and his utility belt full of shark repellent and Bat-whatevers and more Christian Bale and Wayne Tech's R&D department's unused military projects made of titanium and carbon fiber.
If your going to tell me that a genetically engineered child ninja who was spent his childhood being ruthlessly drilled on things like chemistry, mechanical engineering and strategy is really at risk out there, or a Batman's longest serving protege who is the gold standard can be trapped in a death machine where the only escape is to actually die, then I'm put in the position of questioning how a random Gothamite is ready for superheroing without the writer's spending time to build them up.
It's also possibly a function of how insanely skilled Batman has been made over time, that standing next to him means you have to have a insanely skilled sidekick. We have to work with the landscape DC has built where they say X>Y because Z, a mortal like Batman can stand against random insane threat that in the real world would be impossible to defeat because he's a billionaire genius, ninja, scientist, detective, etc. and he's trained his protege to be a smaller version too.
I'm not against new characters, but the writers have to work a little more to sell them as viable. Tim worked because the writers worked to build him up until he was believable, I think that some of the newer characters are trying to be fast tracked by DC and it gives a feeling of being a little awkward.
That said, as alluded to above, some people have their favourites and don't like anybody encroaching on established territory. Also, Batman isn't there to give the stamp of approval at the present moment, that probably carries some weight too.

[Soldy]

Harper = unique haircut, Duke = unique skin color from other Robins. There is absolutely nothing special about these two characters. The sad thing is that because of these "fan favorites" really interesting characters get less screen time.

[t hedge coke]

Harper = unique haircut, Duke = unique skin color from other Robins. There is absolutely nothing special about these two characters. The sad thing is that because of these "fan favorites" really interesting characters get less screen time.

So, what you're really lamenting is that you don't like them, but others do, so they're in comics at the moment and, somehow, if they weren't, those comics would focus more on characters you like.

"Unique skin color." Cute. "Unique haircut."

They should all be little light-skinned boys with black hair. That'll keep'em distinct.

(I don't care for Duke or Harper, one way or another, but this is just ridiculous.)