Why is the "standard" for Robin so high?

[DGraysonWorldsGreatestSpy]

DC just posted an article about why Diversity is a good thing
http://www.dccomics.com/blog/2015/12...s-more-diverse
For those people bringing up race and gender to disparage characters that are different or make them seem less than the old hats
DC isn't catering to just you anymore and likely won't be for awhile.

It is not really about diversity, the first Batwing in David, Luke Fox, Michael Lane etc. have all been introduced and received well but not enough to support their own books or team titles which a lot of DC characters have struggled to do and that is not with the added fact you are trying to do this in an crowded market in Gotham. Harper is the same ethnicity as everyone else and in terms of gender Batgirl, Spoiler, Black Canary etc. have not been featured but have a lot of fans. Miles Morales and Kamala Khan are well received due to both marketing and being UNIQUE to their franchises. There were not 4 Spidermen not including the Original before Miles and Ms. Marvel was really held by one other person prior. Duke and Harper are trying to skyrocket to the top against much stronger competition.


Batman is DC's top property none of his supporting characters will sell as well as him. If we go by hierarchy Harley Quinn is by a larger margin more relevant than practically everyone else in Gotham.
Should she become Batman's new partner? No she doesn't even need Batman she's fine on her own

Harley Quinn is a fan favorite brought over from a TV show who is DC's Deadpool and it took her well over a decade took get a solo. She fits a genre that is rare but lucrative to tap into.

Duke, Harper and any new characters shouldn't have to immediately be hated because the fear of marginalization is a real thing in comics.
I remember when Batwing got a book but Tim Drake didn't when the new 52 started, some people actually questioned by Batwing "deserved" a title. That mentality imo is what lead me to this thread. In a fake world of fictional characters people are actually creating reasons to limit stories

This is something that happens for both DC and Marvel because you have built in fan bases who like their characters and Gotham has built up a significant number of costumed vigilantes which makes it harder too not slip through the cracks because there is only so much attention to be given out.

So yes this leads me to my point
Harper and the WAR kids>>>>>>>12 year old dick grayson
There you go
That's the standard for being a vigilante in gotham
they pass

Stop using Dick Grayson as a 12 year old for comparisons to prove your point. For 40+ years Dick Grayson was the 1st and Only Robin and was featured in more comics/media than anyone except Superman and Batman. Its his time as Robin that is responsible for the explosion of Teen Heroes at both DC and Marvel and the reason the mantle of Robin is as big as it is to this day. He is not a good comparison when saying why Harper and WAR should succeed because they are being introduced in a different climate. Each era has required all characters in comics to be written in a certain fashion to prove there value and older ones have their origins updated to add legitimacy. By the time Jason Todd was introduced Dick Grayson was already a big hero on Earth One and Earth Two. Comparing Dick to them does not work because they will never get 40+ years with just Batman as the only other costumed detective in Gotham. In less than 40 years we have had 5 Robins, Batman Inc., Birds of Prey, etc. introduced to Gotham and all are have been competing for relevancy. The Quantity of Costumed Vigilantes has exploded in such a short time that if you do not have a built in fanbase or get people excited over you quickly you will struggle to find fans.

The fact that this thread has gone on this long is all the proof you need to see that the way Harper and Duke (WAR) are getting written into the Bat Mythos is generating mixed feelings and had they been handled better the reception would be more positive but that still does not translate to long term success.

[Aahz]

Stop using Dick Grayson as a 12 year old for comparisons to prove your point. For 40+ years Dick Grayson was the 1st and Only Robin and was featured in more comics/media than anyone except Superman and Batman.

And stories with a 12 year old Dick are quite rare, even in the Golden Age he was pretty fast aged into a 15 or 16 year old Heigh School student, and the modern stories were he is that young are usually published outside of the main series, and written in a completely different tone.

[Nite-Wing]

And stories with a 12 year old Dick are quite rare, even in the Golden Age he was pretty fast aged into a 15 or 16 year old Heigh School student, and the modern stories were he is that young are usually published outside of the main series, and written in a completely different tone.

That would mean more if Dick wasn't using his "I've been doing this since I was 12" spiel to prop up his character

[The Cool Thatguy]

That would mean more if Dick wasn't using his "I've been doing this since I was 12" spiel to prop up his character

To be fair, Dick might be referring to his circus act, which was fairly dangerous in and of itself.

...I'm kinda surprised now that no one's done an AU where Dick dies, and his Dad goes all crime fighty.

[godisawesome]

I think the issue is more how radically different some of our pacing and portrayal of Batman Affiliates is right now compared to the 90s and 00s portrayal.

So much emphasis was put on how much training Tim and Steph had to go through, with Steph even being considered "not good enough" even after having training stories, that a lot of us started even retconning the meaning of stuff like Jason Todd stealing the Batmobile's tires to emphaisize just how hard we though it must be to be Batman or a member of his family. Damian and Cass also came with backstories that featured being raised in martial arts, and Oracle was so awesome as the Queen of the Internet that even being the stationary geek squad for the family still meant you had the training to beat up ninjas in a Wheelchair.

In contrast, Harper and the We Are Robin kids all seem ludicrously undertrained in comparison. But they're not that far off the starting point of a lot of their New 52 contemporaries. Babs isn't nearly as intimidating, Jason was apparently just drafted without showing any kind of exceptionality, and no one likes to treat Tim Drake's new origin as a good thing for good reason.

[Aioros22]

In contrast, Harper and the We Are Robin kids all seem ludicrously undertrained in comparison. But they're not that far off the starting point of a lot of their New 52 contemporaries. Babs isn't nearly as intimidating, Jason was apparently just drafted without showing any kind of exceptionality, and no one likes to treat Tim Drake's new origin as a good thing for good reason.

Nothing expeptional other than learning a MA esoteric move that Talia failed to master

Barbara isn`t in a chair but that aside I`m not sure what is supposed to be less intimidating now, than before when she had the role. The bold would only mean one thing. They still need to learn more before being officially drafted into it.

[Aahz]

Nothing expeptional other than learning a MA esoteric move that Talia failed to master

To be fair, it was never really established how good or bad Jason was (its really dependent on the writer), if he was exceptional good at something (like Dick in Acrobatics or Tim as Detective Hacker) or if he had a "pseudo-power" (like Barbaras eidetic memory, Cass and Dicks body reading, Cass move copying or Damains voice imitation).
What sometimes was said/shown is that he was a good fighter, was good with fire arms (which he learned from Bruce), was very brave/fearless and learns very fast. In the Zero Year Tie In (were he did the magic punch) it was also shown that he could learn moves by watching Kung-Fu-movies, but that came unfortunately never up again afterwards.

Barbara isn`t in a chair but that aside I`m not sure what is supposed to be less intimidating now, than before when she had the role. The bold would only mean one thing. They still need to learn more before being officially drafted into it.

Thats partly due to this Burnside thing, during the Gail Simone Run in the first years of the new 52 she was imo more competent.

[TRS80]

Because Batman has high standards. Do you think any punk off the street can do what it takes to be Robin? Ask Jason how that turned out.

[Nite-Wing]

Because Batman has high standards. Do you think any punk off the street can do what it takes to be Robin? Ask Jason how that turned out.

yes
Alfred is doing taking any boy or girl off the street giving them tech and making them Robin.
Harper was a Batman fangirl who was good at tech no she has Batman's cosign and is Bluebird

[hero talk]

So a big thing lately seems to be the notion that if you aren't a highly trained, super ninja, assassin, elite operator, master detective you have no businesses having the name Robin or even being a vigilante.
This is often thrown at the Robin cells functioning in We Are Robin
Harper also gets this blow back in Batman and Robin Eternal
Even Carrie Kelly is starting to face some of this blowback in her own continuity
Ironically Robin is largely viewed as a joke sidekick by the world at large compared to Batman. There's never been a great hype and fear of Robin compared to Batman.
Robin shows up to stop criminals by himself they are much more likely to laugh than run.
There is a point for this though, its used to exploit criminals and take advantage of their perceptions.
In reality there is no threat of a child or teen beating a group of adults by himself. In comics this can happen

The need for Robin to be as highly skilled as Batman was never there and is frankly impossible. You have two different characters who are driven by different motivations.
So for this to be manipulated into a narrative to keep other characters out of the role, make them seem lacking, or even become supporting characters in there own right seems ridiculous.
In the 1943 Batman serial Robin was presented as a gov't agent along with Batman his only skill to swing a wrench/pipe thing. No expert training there
In the Batman tv show Robin was basically there as an exposition meme
In the Superfriends tv show he was even less only given a speaking role opposite Batman and barely doing anything while Batman drove whatever vehicle the episode had

These are all the media appearances that mattered for Robin when the comics began to take his role seriously and genuinely decide the child character needed to "work" in Batman's world.

In a way how these supporting characters work is given little thought
Dick is an acrobat
Jason is a street tough
Tim is a detective
Steph is the daughter of Cluemaster
Damian is the batman version of 3 ninjas

Little is really shown of how or why they need these skills to be effective vigilantes they just have them and are introduced.
The standards seem to increase a lot when someone else dons that costume or any costume
A lot is made of vigilantes putting themselves in danger and I guess this is mitigated entirely with training although apparently whenever a vigilante is killed off in spite of all this its a controversy.

Why are the standards so high now?
Is it because Batman has become darker?
Is it because there's some guilt about endangering children in a medium that will inevitably dispose of them in some event?

well now you don't have to worry about that cause now just put on an R no training needed WE ARE ROBIN!

[DurararaFTW]

yes
Alfred is doing taking any boy or girl off the street giving them tech and making them Robin.

But he's not, tho. WAR number into the hundreds. nearly all of them haven't been trained by Alfred, met Alfred, or been given anything by Alfred, beyond the designation Robin.

[Dmreyn]

It seems simple to me. The reason there is such a high standard is because of the job risks. Batman is taking a TEENager and training them to confront murderers, soldiers, hitmen, psychos, and villains with superpowers that even trained policemen can't take down easily. One of his biggest regrets is Jason's death. If he's going to let somebody wear the mask and badge of Robin, he's going to make damn sure they can handle it. Nowadays, this is of more importance. Batman is darker and more realistic (as far as comic realism is concerned) than the Batman and Robin of the 50s, 60s, and 70s. Robin's not chasing around aliens on a giant typewriter anymore, he's facing down henchmen armed with fully automatic weapons and fear gas. Part of the reason I'm really enjoying Robin War so far is because it addresses all of this.

[Aioros22]

To be fair, it was never really established how good or bad Jason was (its really dependent on the writer), if he was exceptional good at something (like Dick in Acrobatics or Tim as Detective Hacker) or if he had a "pseudo-power" (like Barbaras eidetic memory, Cass and Dicks body reading, Cass move copying or Damains voice imitation).

Everything is dependable on writers and in this case (in either continuity actually) it`s something that makes Jason stand out. Most of the details you mention about the other characters weren`t described upon their original introductions either, but they were regardless met with expetctations of potential.

Case in point, in the older continuity, how many characters managed to steal the tires of the batmobile?

What sometimes was said/shown is that he was a good fighter, was good with fire arms (which he learned from Bruce), was very brave/fearless and learns very fast.

That alone is already more than almost all the WAR kids currently got. Dare I even say, pretty much all of them so far?

In the Zero Year Tie In (were he did the magic punch) it was also shown that he could learn moves by watching Kung-Fu-movies, but that came unfortunately never up again afterwards.

His body reading was used in RATHO and came last in the fight with Cass very recently. Even if it was just a one time thing - which isn`t, it`s there. They haven`t had the trouble to erase the background that was set for him. They won`t do it now.

Talia, Bruce, Ras and Ducra all saw the potential in him. The WAR kids can have such potential as long the creative team is willing, but so far they haven`t done anything to set them apart. The hero of the story so far is the movement itself, not one special member (although we know Duke can get there because of Future`s End). But so far? Not one stands out of the pack like the mains did. Hence the standard. It got zero to do with diversity or anything else. The moment editorial spends decades bringing up what made the mains "it" for one reason or another, those who come after have standards to meet up.

So let them, if that`s what they aim for.

Because Batman has high standards. Do you think any punk off the street can do what it takes to be Robin? Ask Jason how that turned out.

Oh look, trollage.

yes
Alfred is doing taking any boy or girl off the street giving them tech and making them Robin.

He`s not "making" anything other than providing a movement able to rally teenagers. Intentions aside, obscure or otherwise, he`s only giving them tech and then lets them loose. That`s zero training for the risks to be taken and you know it.

Hence why it`s a focal plot point inside the story, peeps.

[Agent Z]

Because Batman has high standards. Do you think any punk off the street can do what it takes to be Robin? Ask Jason how that turned out.

Characters are as skilled as the writers want them to be. Realistically, Batman shouldn't last a second against Darkseid but he does.

[Aioros22]

Characters are as skilled as the writers want them to be. Realistically, Batman shouldn't last a second against Darkseid but he does.

It`s not even that considering Jason was always written as skilled at the time, whatever it was stories pre or post Crisis. His death had nothing to do with skillset.