Atheism and Agnosticism Discussion Thread

[Shawn Hopkins]

Disclaimer up front, the title of the thread isn't meant to be exclusionary. Everyone is welcome to participate, all opinions and respectful discussion within CBR rules is encouraged.

Here's a topic I don't get to talk about much in real life, and I think many people are in my situation, so I thought I'd make a thread about it so we could have some discussion here. I hope we can post our thoughts about atheism and agnosticism, discuss the general topic, discuss news related to the topic and share our experiences here.

First, some introductory questions:

If you are an atheist or agnostic, tell us a little bit about how you reached that decision. Was there one inspiring incident? A gradual awakening? Share any books or other materials you have read that you feel gave you insight into that decision.

If you are not an atheist or agnostic, tell us how you view atheists and agnostics.

To answer my own question, I grew up in extremely rural, extremely religious eastern Kentucky where we still have little white Old Regular Baptist churches with pictures of dead members on the walls, denominations where it's not okay for women to cut their hair, and snake handlers. But my parents never regularly took us to church except for one period when my dad experimented with several different denominations, even reading the Koran, before settling on the Urantia Book as his book of choice. Even that he wasn't that serious about, I think the fact that it was a science fiction cult appealed to him because he had always been into SF.

But, in short, I was never told that one denomination was the "right" way and had no ingrained faith to lose. My relationship with God, as a general concept, was just one of fear. I figured I needed to believe because if I didn't, I'd go to Hell. No one wants to go to Hell, right? That sounded like it would suck.

But as a kid I couldn't help wonder about the cracks I saw in the logic. I went along to Vacation Bible School because all my friends were doing it, and the God of the Bible they talked about there sure didn't sound like a perfect being to me. He sounded like a dick. He couldn't be perfect and a dick, I thought. I also thought about all the other religions out there and wondered how so many people could be allowed to get it so wrong, and why everyone though they were right, down to minor details like the hair thing. Of course, they couldn't all be right.

But I still hung on a little bit because I was scared. I didn't really believe, but I would always leave myself a bit of hedging room to avoid the hellfire. As I got older, I gradually stopped being so afraid, and although I can't remember the exact inciting incident I realized that fear was no reason to believe in something. I think something that influenced my thought process was a story on NPR where a pastor had started controversially telling his congregation that there is no Hell. I remember listening to his logic and thinking to myself, "Yeah, the God they sold to me, the beneficent and wise one, wouldn't have made Hell. People made up Hell." That helped take some of the sting out of my fear.

There isn't any one book I can say seriously influenced my atheism, except for reading widely about world religions, I guess. I did read a little Dawkins, but long after he was preaching to the choir with me.

Looking forward to hearing your stories and thoughts!

[Kirby101]

Just acknowledging this thread and I hope to write a contextual post when I have the time.
I will say Dawkin's "The Blind Watchmaker" was pivitol for me.

[Custodes]

"All I am sure of is I will remain unsure."

[Spike-X]

I've heard the stories, and I've had a think about them, and it seems ridiculously unlikely that a bunch of stories made up by goat herders who didn't know where the sun went at night is what actually happened, given how much we know now about how the world and the universe actually came into being.

[PwrdOn]

Having grown up atheist, my first encounters with religion were honestly quite a surprise since my first reaction was that these people couldn't possibly be serious about this God fellow, nevermind the ideas of heaven and hell, the garden and the flood, and Jesus dying on the cross for our sins. Nevertheless, I definitely got the impression somehow that Christians were the good people, and that not believing somehow meant you were doing it wrong, so I did give it a fair shot. Quite frankly, the main reason I never actually bought into it was just that the whole experience of religion was so boring for me, reading the Bible and sitting through church sermons was unbelievably dull and while I tried praying many times I got absolutely nothing out of it. I cannot imagine what it would be like for someone growing up in a religious family and pushed into belief against their will and having to endure it for their entire lives, compared to those people I consider myself quite lucky.

Nowadays I do have a much better understanding of the appeal of religion, since there will always be people who value stability and peace of mind over freedom and equality, and atheists are just as susceptible to this mindset, only that they must substitute some other entity for the church. But I think that as people become better informed and more aware of the world outside their own bubbles, they will naturally seek to break away from these kinds of restrictive social structures and while it's going to be a slow process, everyone will be better off for it.

[Old Man Ollie 1962]

Rather than paraphrase, I'll simply share this article I read on a friend's Facebook page. It's from a magazine called Awake.

"An Experimental Physicist Explains His Faith"


WENLONG HE first studied physics in Suzhou, Jiangsu Province, China. He helps edit an international journal of technology and has had dozens of papers published in scientific literature. At present, Wenlong He works for Scotland’s University of Strathclyde. As a youth, he believed in evolution, but later he concluded that life was created. Awake! asked him about his faith.

Tell us about your background.

I was born in 1963 and grew up in China, in a village south of the Yangtze River in Jiangsu Province. It is a subtropical area famous for its food production, so it is often called the land of rice and fish. As a child, I used to wonder: ‘Why does nature provide so many tasty foods? Did they come about by chance? Which came first—the chicken or the egg?’ Atheism is predominant in China, so at school I was taught about evolution.

What about your family?

My parents were atheists. My mother did farmwork, while my father worked as an architect and established a construction company. I’m the eldest of their five sons. Sadly, two of my brothers died young. That caused me much grief, and I wondered: ‘Why do people die? Will I ever see my brothers again?’

Why did you study science?

I wanted to study physics because I was intrigued by the natural world and I thought physics might answer the questions that had intrigued me since childhood.

What is your field of research?

I explore ways of accelerating charged particles to speeds close to the speed of light. I do this to study the structure of atoms. I also investigate how to generate high-power radiation with a frequency between that of microwave and infrared radiation. Although my research has commercial value, it is also linked to efforts to understand how the universe began.

What facts did you consider?

As a physicist, my job is to understand nature. So I decided to give the facts some careful thought.
First, I knew that a closed system cannot become more organized or remain organized unless acted upon by an external agent. That is the second law of thermodynamics. Since the universe and life on earth are highly ordered, I concluded that they must be products of an external agent, a Creator. The second fact was that the universe and the earth seem to be specifically designed to support life.

Why did that fact impress you?

I was intrigued by the introduction to the Bible’s creation account and its reference to light. It states: “God said: ‘Let there be light.’ Then there was light.” * Only a very narrow band of the vast spectrum of solar radiation is visible light, but light is vital for life. Plants need it to produce food, and we need light to see. The atmosphere’s special transparency to light cannot be a coincidence. Even more remarkable is the tiny amount of ultraviolet light that reaches the earth’s surface.

Why is that significant?

Some ultraviolet radiation is critical. We need a small amount of it on our skin to produce vitamin D, which is vital for bone health and evidently for protection from cancer and other diseases. However, too much of this particular radiation causes skin cancer and eye cataracts. In its natural state, the atmosphere allows only a tiny amount of this ultraviolet radiation to reach the earth’s surface—and it is just the right amount. For me, that is evidence that someone designed the earth to sustain life.

[Custodes]

"The Earth was created in 1934 by a cosmic entity known only as Fred. All proof (and memory) of past history are merely Fred's fabrications."

Steve Gerber

PS: I always ad the "and memory" part. It helps to explain it better.

Hint: What does The Bible say? Compare. Figure it out.

[Spike-X]

Some ultraviolet radiation is critical. We need a small amount of it on our skin to produce vitamin D, which is vital for bone health and evidently for protection from cancer and other diseases. However, too much of this particular radiation causes skin cancer and eye cataracts. In its natural state, the atmosphere allows only a tiny amount of this ultraviolet radiation to reach the earth’s surface—and it is just the right amount. For me, that is evidence that someone designed the earth to sustain life.

Cool story, bro.

Of course, if he was an evolutionary biologist, rather than a physicist, he'd know that what it's actually evidence of, is that life evolved over millions of years in order to adapt to the conditions.

[Red Wolf]

Inyan or Maheo created the world. Depending on which side of the family you listen to.

[Old Man Ollie 1962]

Inyan or Maheo created the world. Depending on which side of the family you listen to.

Ha. I can relate, my man.

[Spike-X]

[Kensei]

I am not an atheist or an agnostic, nor am I a Christian (though I was raised as one). That doesn't mean I reject all Christian teaching, it just isn't the path I've chosen to follow and I will refrain here from mentioning which religion I've chosen to follow. I have studied paranormal and supernatural phenomena all my life and have had some experiences with them myself to the point that I don't just believe but know there is such a realm. But I also don't reject science and I find it fascinating as well. I feel there is no reason to choose between science and religion because to me the definition of science is four simple words- "The study of everything"- and that should include scientific study of the supernatural. I think that divine creation and the Big Bang may have been the same thing. I think the entire debate about creationism vs. evolution can be settled with three words- God created evolution. I also think it's tremendously sad how all the various religions are unable to get along and how most of them insist that they are the one and only true way when their differences can easily be viewed in terms of a divine creator that revealed itself to different cultures in different ways and under different names because it had created mankind to be diverse and that one form would not be understood by all. Sad too is the fact that even with all the fighting, most people who identify as belonging to whatever religion are not devout in its practice. I myself am hardly perfect in that area, but I recognize that and try to do the best I can.

[CSTowle]

Started off (as most who post here will have, being mostly from North America or the UK) as a Christian and have mostly had interactions with that religion. So my journey from religious(?) to atheist began there. It may help that when they list the least religious states in the US mine (New Hampshire) and the one just over the border (Vermont) are among the top. That said, I grew up in a home with a Catholic-ish mother (also grew up in hippy times and was into some weird stuff, including crystals/horoscopes/Wiccan-ish and Eastern-ish half-assed/repurposed ideas), and a father I rarely saw and never really spoke about religion.

I was told there was a god, and a heaven and a hell, and all of the stories. I believed like I had about Santa, and the Easter Bunny, etc. because that's what I was told and I went along to get along. Also, I was let in on the secret on the others. Didn't attend a Catholic Church (mom was pretty laid back about it, let me figure out where I was), but attended Sunday School for years at a few different churches.

I think the one that helped me the most was Bow Baptist. They took things very seriously, called every adult member "Brother" or "Sister"-fill in the name-, and it was around the time I started noticing inconsistencies and failures of logic in the stories. So I started asking questions. This was extremely frowned upon, but I always figured "where better to ask?" I was punished, often seated with the girls (logic being, I guess you don't want to be a girl?), and never found satisfying answers there.

I do remember every week they'd have a special group prayer. They'd say, "anyone who doesn't feel Jesus is in their heart right now come with Sister (I honestly forget) into this room". And every week I realized I didn't think he was there, so I'd go in. And we'd hold hands, bow our heads, and pray real hard. And I did, because I thought that was what you did. Never did work though.

I honestly thought there was something wrong with me. Everyone (I thought, as a kid) believed this stuff, why couldn't I? I'd say the closest thing I had to a religious experience actually came from watching stand-up comedy. George Carlin. He said things I'd been thinking for years, only he said them better than I ever could, made them funny, and made it seem like we were the sane ones. It went a long way to making me feel like it was OK to think the way I did, even if everyone around me at the time appeared to believe the opposite.

I went on to be pretty angry at religion (mostly Christianity, as that was my only real exposure at the time), then eventually settled into realizing these things are mostly determined by where you're born and who your parents and community are. It'd be like getting mad at someone born in NYC for being a Yankees fan. I do still enjoy the discussions, but I understand why it becomes heated on occasion. For me and most non-Dawkins types on my side of it there's not as much at stake. It's like talking about Star Trek or Batman. For others it's what their entire worldview is based upon.

[Shawn Hopkins]

Started off (as most who post here will have, being mostly from North America or the UK) as a Christian and have mostly had interactions with that religion. So my journey from religious(?) to atheist began there. It may help that when they list the least religious states in the US mine (New Hampshire) and the one just over the border (Vermont) are among the top. That said, I grew up in a home with a Catholic-ish mother (also grew up in hippy times and was into some weird stuff, including crystals/horoscopes/Wiccan-ish and Eastern-ish half-assed/repurposed ideas), and a father I rarely saw and never really spoke about religion.

I was told there was a god, and a heaven and a hell, and all of the stories. I believed like I had about Santa, and the Easter Bunny, etc. because that's what I was told and I went along to get along. Also, I was let in on the secret on the others. Didn't attend a Catholic Church (mom was pretty laid back about it, let me figure out where I was), but attended Sunday School for years at a few different churches.

I think the one that helped me the most was Bow Baptist. They took things very seriously, called every adult member "Brother" or "Sister"-fill in the name-, and it was around the time I started noticing inconsistencies and failures of logic in the stories. So I started asking questions. This was extremely frowned upon, but I always figured "where better to ask?" I was punished, often seated with the girls (logic being, I guess you don't want to be a girl?), and never found satisfying answers there.

I do remember every week they'd have a special group prayer. They'd say, "anyone who doesn't feel Jesus is in their heart right now come with Sister (I honestly forget) into this room". And every week I realized I didn't think he was there, so I'd go in. And we'd hold hands, bow our heads, and pray real hard. And I did, because I thought that was what you did. Never did work though.

I honestly thought there was something wrong with me. Everyone (I thought, as a kid) believed this stuff, why couldn't I? I'd say the closest thing I had to a religious experience actually came from watching stand-up comedy. George Carlin. He said things I'd been thinking for years, only he said them better than I ever could, made them funny, and made it seem like we were the sane ones. It went a long way to making me feel like it was OK to think the way I did, even if everyone around me at the time appeared to believe the opposite.

I went on to be pretty angry at religion (mostly Christianity, as that was my only real exposure at the time), then eventually settled into realizing these things are mostly determined by where you're born and who your parents and community are. It'd be like getting mad at someone born in NYC for being a Yankees fan. I do still enjoy the discussions, but I understand why it becomes heated on occasion. For me and most non-Dawkins types on my side of it there's not as much at stake. It's like talking about Star Trek or Batman. For others it's what their entire worldview is based upon.

That thing with the Sister reminds me of when my dad took us to a revival when I was a kid. At the end the preacher said "Everybody who feels saved tonight, stand up!"

Everyone that I could see from my kid's-eye view stood up. I stayed seated, because I didn't feel any different and anyway it didn't seem like it could be that easy.

But after doing so I felt embarassed, like maybe I should have stood to fit in, or that I had violated some social convention. Maybe it was like thanking the chef or clapping after a good concert. And also there was the fear, had I missed my chance to be saved and escape hell?

[Malvolio]

I grew up Jewish and went to Hebrew school. I was Bar Mitzvahed when I turned 13, but haven't gone to Temple much since then. I still obey a few of the rituals: I eat matzo instead of bread during Passover and I fast on Yom Kippur. Mostly though, these days, I believe in God but not organized religion. In college I learned that that makes me a Deist. Thomas Jefferson was a Deist. It basically means that while we believe in God, we don't believe that He's watching over Earth any more. With all of the awful things happening in the world these days, that's easy for me to believe. And the occasional good thing that seems miraculous? Maybe that's God coming over for a visit, like your grandparents visiting from Florida.

One last point, about the creationism/evolution debate. Science teaches us how we got here. Religion teaches us why we're here.