Was a Contest Held in The New 52? Who Named Diana "Wonder Woman?"

[Agent Z]

The book treated it as such because the Amazons gods litterally decended from heaven and asked them to show forgiveness, and half the Amazons told them to bugger off. Regarding the feeling since then... pardon me for saying this, but after 3000 years they should have reached some level of peace around the subject.
Regarding the New 52 Amazons; well for all her faults Finch did show the Amazons having diplomatic ties with the rest of the known world and held audiences with messengers.

If they dont agree on anything, then that single line spoken in malice is the sole property of the speaker and the others shouldn't be measured by it the same way real people aren't measured by what other people say even if they are 'on the same side'. You are right we dont get another account within the Wonder Woman book, but no one was ever asked about it either. And no Dessa did not get her impluse from nowhere, but obeying an archaic tradition doesn't make her a man-hater. By what we are told that Hippolyta was 'bare' doesn't automatically mean she was infertile, and knew this by experience, she could have opted not to go on a raid because she wanted a different experience out of it than the one her sisters got.

There is also limitations of space and priorities to follow. Azzarello priotized his story over excess world-building.

And it doesn't make it any less wrong.

The book treated it as such because the Amazons gods litterally decended from heaven and asked them to show forgiveness, and half the Amazons told them to bugger off. Regarding the feeling since then... pardon me for saying this, but after 3000 years they should have reached some level of peace around the subject.
Regarding the New 52 Amazons; well for all her faults Finch did show the Amazons having diplomatic ties with the rest of the known world and held audiences with messengers.

Like how we've achieved world peace? Given the state the world has been in, I don't blame the Amazons for taking their time.

The book treated it as such because the Amazons gods litterally decended from heaven and asked them to show forgiveness, and half the Amazons told them to bugger off. Regarding the feeling since then... pardon me for saying this, but after 3000 years they should have reached some level of peace around the subject.
Regarding the New 52 Amazons; well for all her faults Finch did show the Amazons having diplomatic ties with the rest of the known world and held audiences with messengers.

If they dont agree on anything, then that single line spoken in malice is the sole property of the speaker and the others shouldn't be measured by it the same way real people aren't measured by what other people say even if they are 'on the same side'. You are right we dont get another account within the Wonder Woman book, but no one was ever asked about it either. And no Dessa did not get her impluse from nowhere, but obeying an archaic tradition doesn't make her a man-hater.

In real life, no. In fiction, what we believe and know about characters, more specifically, a group of characters, is defined by the actions and words that occur on screen/on the page. If the Amazons are consistently shown as violent and mistrustful, I'm going to need more proof that they aren't than one person saying they aren't. It's called showing and not simply telling. And while it may not make her a man hater, Dessa wanting to kill (what was then thought to be) an innocent child certainly speaks of a lack of empathy and inability to think for herself.

By what we are told that Hippolyta was 'bare' doesn't automatically mean she was infertile, and knew this by experience, she could have opted not to go on a raid because she wanted a different experience out of it than the one her sisters got.

How would her being bare mean anything else in this context? This is seriously stretching.

There is also limitations of space and priorities to follow. Azzarello priotized his story over excess world-building.

You don't need excess world building to show more positive aspects of the Amazon people. Perez accomplished that in the first issue. Azzarello had 35 issues and, from what we are told, unlimited freedom to do as he pleased, and never accomplished anything other than one line about how they don't agree on everything.

[Dr. Poison]

Well we saw them kill a boatload of sailors in Azz's issues and we saw them kill their brothers in Finch's. According to Azz, they went on their sailor pillaging exploits every 30 or so years. If you accept that the Trojan War was supposed to have occurred in the 12th Century... that would be 800 years divided by 30 or 26 raids. Most ships have about 25 men on them... so 26 multiplied by 25 is 650 dead men, whose only crime was a willingness tohave sex with a bunch of naked pirates. And that is assuming that only 26 Amazons mated every 30 years. It looked as if there were more Amazons than that.

Additionally, there are plenty of examples of the New52 Amazons saying crappy things about men and pretty much zero (with the exception of Hessia, who got off the island) examples of them saying anything nice. One specific example of them saying something nice would go a long way to bolster the argument that they are not man-haters. Too often, people argue the following "Well, you are only seeing the bad parts, I am sure that there are plenty of times they are nice. The author just isn't showing them." To which I respond, "If the writer isn't showing/telling us something, it doesn't exist."

Azz (and the Finches) have had plenty of opportunity to show us examples of the Amazons being nice. They have chosen not to for a reason.

There was also that issue of Batman & Wonder Woman(aka Robin) in which an Amazon sex-raid is shown and all of the men aboard are killed except for a priest that hid himself as soon as the Amazons came aboard.

[Dr. Poison]

Because they happened to be facing people of the male gender and they know what threats actually work.
Hippolyta to be exact, if I am not entirely mistaken she's probably the only one with the authority to do so.
Do we? Since when exactly? And how?
No, thats the thing, we aren't shown any actual hatred because we generally never see their faces when these things happen. The raids for instance we are just told that the Amazons killed them, not that it litterally turned into a horror movie.

And because we have so little, I think its a good reason why we need to be extra careful with what we readers have. You are right that if we wrote all of this down as it happens, then the Amazons sound completely irredeemable, like;
-Diana, Hermes and Zola arrive in the jungle, Amazon threatens Hermes penis.
-Dessa wanted to throw Zeke off a cliff after stealing him.
But I feel this is just unfair because it's ignoring the subtilities of the rest of the page.

As for the raids, well we have to remember the only tale we have of it is the one provided by Hephaestus, whose account can best be described as 2nd-hand; He wasn't present on the ship, and probably not looking from a mirror like a peeping tom, he was only told where the kids came from and probably not in any great detail because... why would he want to know? and why would any of the Amazons speak of it? (the mothers wouldn't even be present at the hand-over by the looks of it). The account he then gives Diana is based on what he was told and added a little for dramatics since it was probably ages when he was last told about it.

Wrong, there was another account of one of the Amazons' sex raids from a priest who appeared in Batman & Wonder Woman(aka Robin) who mentioned that the Amazons raided his boat for male seed and killed everyone aboard except for the priest because due to his vow of celibacy, he hid himself as soon as he realized why the Amazons came aboard.

As for the pre-New 52 Amazons being accepting of outsiders, they were exactly that when they opened up Themyscira to outsiders. Men and women alike were allowed to step foot on the island and Lois Lane was even there to cover the story for the Daily Planet.

[Agent Z]

Wrong, there was another account of one of the Amazons' sex raids from a priest who appeared in Batman & Wonder Woman(aka Robin) who mentioned that the Amazons raided his boat for male seed and killed everyone aboard except for the priest because due to his vow of celibacy, he hid himself as soon as he realized why the Amazons came aboard.

As for the pre-New 52 Amazons being accepting of outsiders, they were exactly that when they opened up Themyscira to outsiders. Men and women alike were allowed to step foot on the island and Lois Lane was even there to cover the story for the Daily Planet.

There's also an issue of Demon Knights were an account from the Amazons' own libraries describe an Amazon as being particularly blood thirsty during the raids.

[Outside_85]

Like how we've achieved world peace? Given the state the world has been in, I don't blame the Amazons for taking their time.

I am unsure what you are referring to here.

In real life, no. In fiction, what we believe and know about characters, more specifically, a group of characters, is defined by the actions and words that occur on screen/on the page.
If the Amazons are consistently shown as violent and mistrustful, I'm going to need more proof that they aren't than one person saying they aren't.
It's called showing and not simply telling.
And while it may not make her a man hater, Dessa wanting to kill (what was then thought to be) an innocent child certainly speaks of a lack of empathy and inability to think for herself.

I would leave it at this being your way of viewing it and I dont agree with it unless this fictional group actually has a hive-mind like say Starro.
The modern Amazons have pretty much always been mistrustful because they've ended up getting stabbed in the back every time they've trusted someone who isn't one of them.
It's also presumptuous, you see one say something bad and you say everyone else must be the same untill proven otherwise.
That she was nearly hysterical and almost killed herself speaks to the volumes of empathy she felt, not the lack of it.

How would her being bare mean anything else in this context? This is seriously stretching.

Not any more than claiming she's infertile unless you were the doctor that examined her.

You don't need excess world building to show more positive aspects of the Amazon people. Perez accomplished that in the first issue. Azzarello had 35 issues and, from what we are told, unlimited freedom to do as he pleased, and never accomplished anything other than one line about how they don't agree on everything.

Thing is that Perez and Azzarello are not the same people, even if they share hairstyles, and they didn't work from the same template, with the same goals in mind or even under the same rules. Azzarello came to DC with 1 story he wanted to tell, Perez had a dozen shorter stories where he also weaved in a world around Diana.

Wrong, there was another account of one of the Amazons' sex raids from a priest who appeared in Batman & Wonder Woman(aka Robin) who mentioned that the Amazons raided his boat for male seed and killed everyone aboard except for the priest because due to his vow of celibacy, he hid himself as soon as he realized why the Amazons came aboard.

As for the pre-New 52 Amazons being accepting of outsiders, they were exactly that when they opened up Themyscira to outsiders. Men and women alike were allowed to step foot on the island and Lois Lane was even there to cover the story for the Daily Planet.

So effectively he only heard the noises. Plus you have to consider that he was a priest, who are prone to give exaggerated acounts of what non-believers get up to.

And I seem to recall Artemis arguing with Philipus regarding the strain the visitors were putting on their resources. Plus I dont recall we ever saw any of these civilians unless they were somehow part of a story... usually by getting killed.

There's also an issue of Demon Knights were an account from the Amazons' own libraries describe an Amazon as being particularly blood thirsty during the raids.

You should read that line again because thats not what she's saying. But, when asked if the sailor could still be found and questioned, Khronika gave them a name of the Amazon he was paired with and that she had some idead afterwards, but was cut off by Ex before she could go into details, with it remaining at; 'there is a price for laying with an Amazon'.

[Carabas]

There's also an issue of Demon Knights were an account from the Amazons' own libraries describe an Amazon as being particularly blood thirsty during the raids.

Stands to reason, doesn't it?
The ones going on those raids would be the more fanatical and devout (or just plain twisted) ones, an they naturally would let their hair down, so to speak, away from their more moderate sisters.

[Dr. Poison]

I am unsure what you are referring to here.



I would leave it at this being your way of viewing it and I dont agree with it unless this fictional group actually has a hive-mind like say Starro.
The modern Amazons have pretty much always been mistrustful because they've ended up getting stabbed in the back every time they've trusted someone who isn't one of them.
It's also presumptuous, you see one say something bad and you say everyone else must be the same untill proven otherwise.
That she was nearly hysterical and almost killed herself speaks to the volumes of empathy she felt, not the lack of it.



Not any more than claiming she's infertile unless you were the doctor that examined her.



Thing is that Perez and Azzarello are not the same people, even if they share hairstyles, and they didn't work from the same template, with the same goals in mind or even under the same rules. Azzarello came to DC with 1 story he wanted to tell, Perez had a dozen shorter stories where he also weaved in a world around Diana.



So effectively he only heard the noises. Plus you have to consider that he was a priest, who are prone to give exaggerated acounts of what non-believers get up to.

And I seem to recall Artemis arguing with Philipus regarding the strain the visitors were putting on their resources. Plus I dont recall we ever saw any of these civilians unless they were somehow part of a story... usually by getting killed.



You should read that line again because thats not what she's saying. But, when asked if the sailor could still be found and questioned, Khronika gave them a name of the Amazon he was paired with and that she had some idead afterwards, but was cut off by Ex before she could go into details, with it remaining at; 'there is a price for laying with an Amazon'.

I'm sure once the Amazons were done with their raid, the priest saw the dead bodies or at the very least blood splattered all over the place and just about everyone exaggerates, not just priests.

Civilians were shown on the island......

[Agent Z]

I am unsure what you are referring to here.



I would leave it at this being your way of viewing it and I dont agree with it unless this fictional group actually has a hive-mind like say Starro.
The modern Amazons have pretty much always been mistrustful because they've ended up getting stabbed in the back every time they've trusted someone who isn't one of them.
It's also presumptuous, you see one say something bad and you say everyone else must be the same untill proven otherwise.
That she was nearly hysterical and almost killed herself speaks to the volumes of empathy she felt, not the lack of it.



Not any more than claiming she's infertile unless you were the doctor that examined her.



Thing is that Perez and Azzarello are not the same people, even if they share hairstyles, and they didn't work from the same template, with the same goals in mind or even under the same rules. Azzarello came to DC with 1 story he wanted to tell, Perez had a dozen shorter stories where he also weaved in a world around Diana.



So effectively he only heard the noises. Plus you have to consider that he was a priest, who are prone to give exaggerated acounts of what non-believers get up to.

And I seem to recall Artemis arguing with Philipus regarding the strain the visitors were putting on their resources. Plus I dont recall we ever saw any of these civilians unless they were somehow part of a story... usually by getting killed.



You should read that line again because thats not what she's saying. But, when asked if the sailor could still be found and questioned, Khronika gave them a name of the Amazon he was paired with and that she had some idead afterwards, but was cut off by Ex before she could go into details, with it remaining at; 'there is a price for laying with an Amazon'.

Again, the problem is that these "potentially biased accounts" are the ONLY accounts of the raids we are being allowed to see. They are all we have to judge the Amazons on. There is no attempt to even try to paint the Amazons in a different light.

We know that Spider-Man is a hero because we see him doing heroic stuff all the time and that anytime Jameson accuses him of being a villain, it's a clone, a robot, a doppleganger or whatever. You can't present all this proof of the Amazons being despicable and expect people to buy it when you say "Oh, they're not that bad at all."

Stands to reason, doesn't it?
The ones going on those raids would be the more fanatical and devout (or just plain twisted) ones, an they naturally would let their hair down, so to speak, away from their more moderate sisters.

And your point is?

[Outside_85]

I'm sure once the Amazons were done with their raid, the priest saw the dead bodies or at the very least blood splattered all over the place and just about everyone exaggerates, not just priests.

Civilians were shown on the island......

Priests tend to be very good at it, especially in the world where they were for centuries the only people who could read and write. A real life example; the Vikings.
Also, according to Heps retelling, the bodies were thrown in the sea.

Again, the problem is that these "potentially biased accounts" are the ONLY accounts of the raids we are being allowed to see. They are all we have to judge the Amazons on. There is no attempt to even try to paint the Amazons in a different light.

We know that Spider-Man is a hero because we see him doing heroic stuff all the time and that anytime Jameson accuses him of being a villain, it's a clone, a robot, a doppleganger or whatever. You can't present all this proof of the Amazons being despicable and expect people to buy it when you say "Oh, they're not that bad at all."

And that might be because writers now a days expect us to know that there is more to this world than what is presented within the frame they choose to show.

I am sorry to say that your analogy is quite accurate, but not in the way you might think. Yes, we know Spiderman is a hero because he goes around saving people, Jameson does not know this (or rather chooses to ignore it) because all he has to go on is Peter's photoes and his own personal vendetta coloring his perspective. However, much like the people who agree with Jameson (which is alot since he ended up becoming mayor) you look at world only as it's presented on the piece of paper, you dont move beyond it or the narrative as it's given you. Like Jamesons readers, you wont believe there is anything admirable about the subject before it's actually presented to you even though it's always been there, just out of shot.
It's like Where's Waldo/Wally, what we are seeing is essentially a tiny frame where Wally is easy to find, but he's in a much larger picture.

[SiegePerilous02]

Some of them have probably never actually seen a man. As for nice, How? When?

This statement reminds me why I've always been a bit confused about Aleka. She is Diana's age, and hasn't yet reached the age of being eligible to go on a raid, so she presumably has never seen a man. So why does she have such a hatred of them to the point that she feels the need to spit on the ground at the mere mention of the word musk (still one of the dumbest sequence of panels I've ever seen)? Such hatred is learned behavior. Where is she learning it from? Is her mother one of the more fanatical Amazons and passed her hatred down to her daughter? Did she learn the sordid Amazon history (?) and develop some somewhat justified anger towards men from there? Was her teacher/s in any way involved in shaping her view point, by letting their own biases creep into their lessons?

Letting some of these questions marinate can be very interesting at times, but at others, it feels like people are projecting complexity into the empty spaces Azzarello left when there really isn't all that much there. A major issue that I have with his run is that (at least with the Amazons), he squanders some opportunities to give characters distinctive voices and depth in favor of the larger plot. Which is fairly basic (the gods want Zeus's empty throne, First Born is pissed, him getting the thrown = badness) and isn't really worth losing some extra character driven scenes/stray bits of dialogue that could have made the Amazons and the Manazons more than just a bunch of mostly faceless non-entities.

Stands to reason, doesn't it?
The ones going on those raids would be the more fanatical and devout (or just plain twisted) ones, an they naturally would let their hair down, so to speak, away from their more moderate sisters.

So why are the crazy Amazons the ones sent to go on the raids? Are they the only ones who want kids? Is it because they're the only ones willing to do what needs to be done: kill the men to keep their secret? Isn't Paradise Island only able to be reached through divine means, in which case who cares if the men know, they're not going to be able to reach it anyway, thus rendering the whole thing kind of pointless?

Why even keep any of this stuff vague, along with others aspects of the Amazons (why they hate men, how in hell are they immortal since none of the gods seem to give a crap about them, etc.). It's just annoying. At least with Earth One, even if those Amazons have some extreme hatred of men, we'll be getting the answer why in the first few pages.

[Carabas]

So why are the crazy Amazons the ones sent to go on the raids? Are they the only ones who want kids? Is it because they're the only ones willing to do what needs to be done: kill the men to keep their secret? Isn't Paradise Island only able to be reached through divine means, in which case who cares if the men know, they're not going to be able to reach it anyway, thus rendering the whole thing kind of pointless?

I think it's possible that there's two kinds of Amazons that go on those raids: those who just want a kid, and those who just want to kill some dudes.
Anyway, people seem to have reached Themyscira every now and then, so this divine protection isn't absolute (and I don't recall this protection even being mentioned in Azzarello's run).

Why even keep any of this stuff vague, along with others aspects of the Amazons (why they hate men, how in hell are they immortal since none of the gods seem to give a crap about them, etc.). It's just annoying. At least with Earth One, even if those Amazons have some extreme hatred of men, we'll be getting the answer why in the first few pages.

I think that the entire point of the Azzarellian Amazons is that it's an irrational, culturally/religiously ingrained hatred. It doesn't need a reason. Just like similar hatreds in real life tend to not have any real rational reasons.

[Outside_85]

I think it's possible that there's two kinds of Amazons that go on those raids: those who just want a kid, and those who just want to kill some dudes.
Anyway, people seem to have reached Themyscira every now and then, so this divine protection isn't absolute (and I don't recall this protection even being mentioned in Azzarello's run).


I think that the entire point of the Azzarellian Amazons is that it's an irrational, culturally/religiously ingrained hatred. It doesn't need a reason. Just like similar hatreds in real life tend to not have any real rational reasons.

I think the ones on the raids are the ones that want kids, the ones that just want to kill people will just have left the island rather than wait 30 years to scratch that itch. Plus it doesn't sound like a good sales pitch if killing is all you want to do: "Do you want to kill people? Great! Sign up here. Whats that? Downside? Well you have to have sex with the people you kill first and get pregnant with them. Hey where are you going?"
You are right that it's not mentioned in Azzarello's run, but what are the chances really that an island that big with a city and a navy goes undiscovered right up to the modern age? That said it was mentioned in Venditti's Demon Knights; Only way to get there (or find it) is if an Amazon leads you there. I imagine this only means 'if you are mortal' due to the unlikelyhood of getting a God to show you the way, unless you are Steve Trevor. The only exception to this 'rule' was Tomasi's al Ghul, though it has to be said he might have managed to pry the information from an Amazon he encountered or captured ages ago or maybe he could track the Lazarus pit somehow (since he seems to be the only one who's manged to find these).

I think that as well, sometime in the past something really bad happened to the Amazons and they isolated themselves to avoid a repeat, as the ages went by along with new generations of Amazons, they just handed the fear and hate down from mother to daughter, leading to today where most will be like Dessa; Knowing that they have to fear or hate the other gender, but they can't quite remember why and perhaps they'd prefer not to.
It could also have something to do with peer-pressure, if the Amazons are all going around thinking they are expected to do this and act like that when faced with a man, then they are probably going to do just that. However if they were off on their own, their stance might not be quite as hostile. Like you had both Exoristos and Hessia that blended into the societies they entered when they left the island rather than going on a male-centered killing spree.

[Agent Z]

I think it's possible that there's two kinds of Amazons that go on those raids: those who just want a kid, and those who just want to kill some dudes.
Anyway, people seem to have reached Themyscira every now and then, so this divine protection isn't absolute (and I don't recall this protection even being mentioned in Azzarello's run).


I think that the entire point of the Azzarellian Amazons is that it's an irrational, culturally/religiously ingrained hatred. It doesn't need a reason. Just like similar hatreds in real life tend to not have any real rational reasons.

Problem with this is that it's using the group that is more likely to be oppressed to tell this story.

[Carabas]

Problem with this is that it's using the group that is more likely to be oppressed to tell this story.

It's using a group that doesn't even exist in real life.

[Agent Z]

It's using a group that doesn't even exist in real life.

The Amazons are women. Last I checked, those exist in real life.