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  1. #1
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    Default Star Wars- A question on Darth Vader as a father

    What I think is a significant question occurred to me tonight while watching Star Wars movies with my girlfriend. We went to Episode 7 recently, and she was a fan of episodes 4-6 but thought very little of 1-3 and had only seen little pieces of them and thought they were stupid, so I showed her "Revenge of the Sith" because I consider it to be an important chapter in the story since it features Anakin's transformation to Darth Vader, the birth of Luke and Leia, etc. In that movie we see Anakin choke his wife Padme (who he believes to be pregnant with just one baby), and then be told later by Palpatine in a lie that that act killed her when in truth she lived on to give birth to two babies (Luke & Leia) before dying. Years later in Empire Strikes Back we see Vader reveal to Luke that he is his father, and then in Return of the Jedi we see Vader read Luke's mind and learn that he also has a daughter, Luke's twin sister. Ok, we've all seen those things.

    Here are my questions, which were brought up by my girlfriend and for which I had to admit I had no good answer. How did Vader know that Luke was his son if he believed that Padme died before ever giving birth? Did he just sense it after engaging Luke in aerial combat in the first Death Star battle? And if that's the case, shouldn't he have also sensed that Leia was his daughter when he had her prisoner and spoke to her face to face several times in A New Hope? I have the impression that even in Return of the Jedi when he sensed that he had a daughter he still didn't understand that it was Leia.

    Any thoughts, observations, or debates are welcome.

  2. #2
    Extraordinary Member t hedge coke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kensei View Post
    How did Vader know that Luke was his son if he believed that Padme died before ever giving birth? Did he just sense it after engaging Luke in aerial combat in the first Death Star battle?
    The Emperor actually tells him early in Empire. (I only know this because I'm watching it right now.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kensei View Post
    And if that's the case, shouldn't he have also sensed that Leia was his daughter when he had her prisoner and spoke to her face to face several times in A New Hope? I have the impression that even in Return of the Jedi when he sensed that he had a daughter he still didn't understand that it was Leia.
    Since it took the Emperor saying something for him to understand it with Luke, I imagine his psychic powers aren't all that hot.
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    Extraordinary Member Doctor Know's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kensei View Post
    How did Vader know that Luke was his son if he believed that Padme died before ever giving birth? Did he just sense it after engaging Luke in aerial combat in the first Death Star battle? And if that's the case, shouldn't he have also sensed that Leia was his daughter when he had her prisoner and spoke to her face to face several times in A New Hope? I have the impression that even in Return of the Jedi when he sensed that he had a daughter he still didn't understand that it was Leia.
    In TESB, it is stated that the rebel who destroyed the Death Star was named Luke "Skywalker". Presumably not a lot of people have that name, such a strong connection to the Force AND were seen with and trained by Obi-Wan (as seen in ANH).

    Ad for Vader not sensing Leia was his daughter, despite meeting her several times, chock that up to Leia was never intended to be Vader's daughter or Luke's sister. Just look the original trailer for TESB and some of the old production stills.




    If you watch ANH in isolation, there is a very blatant love triangle set up between Luke (Knight), Han (Outlaw) and Leia (Princess). The big twist of TESB is that Luke is Vader's son. The twist in ROTJ? That Leia is also Vader's child. A twist that didn't hit as hard as the one from TESB, and now that TFA is out; we see that nothing was done with it. Leia never learned to use the Force and never became a Jedi, like her father or brother. The only thing accomplished by making Leia and Luke siblings, was it resolved the love triangle.

    The OT was not mapped out. Originally, ROTJ was to have Han die, Leia become Queen, and Luke walk off into the sunset, never to be seen again.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kensei View Post
    Here are my questions, which were brought up by my girlfriend and for which I had to admit I had no good answer. How did Vader know that Luke was his son if he believed that Padme died before ever giving birth? Did he just sense it after engaging Luke in aerial combat in the first Death Star battle? And if that's the case, shouldn't he have also sensed that Leia was his daughter when he had her prisoner and spoke to her face to face several times in A New Hope? I have the impression that even in Return of the Jedi when he sensed that he had a daughter he still didn't understand that it was Leia.

    Any thoughts, observations, or debates are welcome.
    Well...

    The guys name is Luke Skywalker.
    Who lived on Tatooine.
    In the custody of Vader's inlaws.
    Hangs out with Obi-Wan Kenobi.
    In-universe probably looks a lot like him or like Padme too.

  5. #5
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    We see him find out about Luke for the first time in the Darth Vader comics. #6. Boba Fett spilled the beans.

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    Quote Originally Posted by t hedge coke View Post
    Since it took the Emperor saying something for him to understand it with Luke, I imagine his psychic powers aren't all that hot.
    I also wonder if people using Force powers are more sensitive to each other than ones who haven't developed them (mind you Luke and Leia being sisters was all added in later) but let's say Vader as a Sith can sense Luke using the Force and having Jedi potential and maybe that it has some sort of "signature" that's familiar.

    Leia not developing on her Force powers keeps her hidden as a mere human to someone like Vader who as you said, didn't really develop his psychic skills as much. I think there's a lot of specialities within Force training, Kylo Renn apparently focused on the mind-reading class.

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    Luke says to Vador that you killed my father. In that moment Vador realizes what Ben meant to really say.

    Leia is tortured on the Star-Destroyer via a machine that was brought into her cel. Leia was was raised as somebodies else daughter and never told about her true place in society. Even if Vador had used the force on her, he would never find out any knowledge

    While Vador is using the force to read his mind during the final battle. He is only doing so, to inform Luke of his hiding spot. Luke does not want to let Vador ( his father ) know the truth about his sister. It is obvious that Vador could "sense" Luke is hiding something, and used that against him to draw him out. Which is what the emperor wanted Luke to do. Slay Vador and take his place as his tight new younger Dark Vador.

    So in short Vador does not scan somebodies thoughts 24/7 and his ability is limited to things that is recent. It is the same as Luke not scanning Vadors mind. Same reason why Ben is able to escape with his disappearing act.


    ............


    About Luke and Leia being lovers ( thanks for reminding me of that ) ...that was a surprising twist, it seemed that Luke had something against Solo during the first act. Also explains why Luke would probably vanish and live as a hermit. However that could also point to Yoda. A guy traveling ten thousand miles to avoid intimate contact with his sister seems normal. Also seems the case with the drama "Big Love". Pretty normal move.
    Last edited by DanArt; 01-05-2016 at 08:14 AM.

  8. #8
    Ultimate Member ChrisIII's Avatar
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    It's generally thought that Vader finds out about Luke between ANH and ESB, as he becomes interested in finding out who the pilot he sensed was, and the possible connection he had with Obi-Wan.

    In the original, non-canon EU, Vader discovers the name of the pilot in the old Marvel comics, and also in the Dark Horse comic series "Vader's Quest". The more recent Marvel comics- Marvel's Star Wars and Darth Vader have fleshed out an alternate explanation.

    As for Leia, yeah, despite what Lucas has said it wasn't something planned all along, although it's hinted strongly at the end of ESB that Leia at least has some force connection, hence it being built up in ROTJ. Although like with Owen being afraid of Luke "having too much of his father in him", Leia's resistance to the mind probe droid can also be seen as a sort of retroactive foreshadowing.


    As for Luke betraying Leia's kinship to Vader, remember he'd pretty much found out fairly recently on his own at that point, and as Vader indicates, he was basically overprojecting his emotions at that point.

  9. #9
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    Thanks for all those answers everybody, but I have a few more questions and observations. If Vader learned Luke's identity in between eps 4 and 5 which seems likely, I would think his reaction would have been significant to say the least. Yes he was slavishly obedient to Palpatine but I'd think he would at least ask why this secret was kept from him for 20 years. But some of the answers here have referenced that with Luke's last name it would seem obvious who he was. Just going purely off of what we see in the movies, what was there to tell Vader or anyone else within the Empire that the name of the pilot who destroyed the Death Star was Skywalker? Vader was essentially the only Empirial survivor of that battle and there was certainly nothing that happened during it to tell him the name, so it would seem the rebels must have made Luke's name known far and wide in order to promote him as a great hero. And even then, there was nothing to automatically indicate that the pilot in question was also one of the people running around on the Death Star with Obi-Wan earlier. Han Solo's name would have been known as he was known as the captain of the Millenium Falcon and I suppose it might have been seen as significant to Vader that the Falcon's last known location before the Death Star was Tatooine, the same place the droids escaped to. I guess I'm just thinking out loud here.

    One other thought about Luke's time spent on the Death Star in relation to Vader's force powers- Vader sensed the presence of Obi-Wan on the Death Star which he described as a "tremor" in the force, yet he didn't sense that his son was also there? They were maybe a hundred feet apart at one point. Curious.

  10. #10
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    Vader wasn't slavishly obedient to Palpatine. Even during ROTS, he makes it clear that he wants to overthrow him at the very first available opportunity, hopefully with Padme alongside him(How he actually planned to do this is another matter, especially since he knew zip about politics).


    As for your second paragraph, that's something that I've always wondered myself. Hell, I always wondered if Vader could sense the Death Star schematics inside Artoo. I don't see why the Force can't read the "minds" of droids as well as sentient beings. Maybe Force users can block the presence of other Force users? If that's the case, I could see Obi-Wan using his power to shield Luke from being sensed, but that's just speculation.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr Will Hatch View Post
    Vader wasn't slavishly obedient to Palpatine. Even during ROTS, he makes it clear that he wants to overthrow him at the very first available opportunity, hopefully with Padme alongside him(How he actually planned to do this is another matter, especially since he knew zip about politics).


    .
    I agree that he was like that in ROTS when he was still a young healthy upstart with new powers and three good limbs, but I think it all changed for him the moment Obi-Wan swung that saber for the last time. Once he was encased in the armor and came to understand that he'd need it to live for the rest of his life, and were it not for Palpatine he wouldn't even have that, I think he lost most of his youthful spark pretty quickly and fell into the role of dutiful apprentice. In ROTJ he tells Luke, "It is too late for me, son... I must obey my master." But though he wasn't top dog, as a key figure within the Empire he still got to wield great power which kept him relatively content for those 20 years.

  12. #12
    Extraordinary Member Doctor Know's Avatar
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    ^ Everything you said, plus Vader's attempt to recruit Luke in TESB. Vader knew he couldn't take Sidious alone, but together they would be able to win. Vader's suit being mobile life support, is what kept him under the Emperor's heel for decades.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Char Aznable View Post
    ^ Everything you said, plus Vader's attempt to recruit Luke in TESB. Vader knew he couldn't take Sidious alone, but together they would be able to win. Vader's suit being mobile life support, is what kept him under the Emperor's heel for decades.
    Ah yes, forgot all about that moment in TESB during the "I am your father" speech when Vader says that together he and Luke could destroy the Emperor "and rule the galaxy as father and son." Now I'm thinking Vader got some of his old spark back when he learned that his son was alive, and as I was saying earlier held it against Palpatine in a pretty big way that that secret was kept from him for so long. But then again, in ROTJ when Luke surrenders to Vader and they have a private talk, there is no mention of that old offer, just "I must obey my master." A paradox, it seems, since in delivering Luke Vader was helping sew the seeds of his own destruction. Surely he must have understood by then that Palpatine both killed his own master and sacrificed his apprentice Count Dooku and had a habit of replacing people when there was someone more youthful available.
    Last edited by Kensei; 01-07-2016 at 01:12 AM.

  14. #14
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    I can't remember what it's from but someone made a good observation about how they hid Luke. "We must hide Luke so Vader never knows he exists. We'll put him on Tatooine and have Anakin's step-brother take care of him." "Should we change his last name?" "Nah, I don't see why".

    I think the best change Lucas made was the scene where Vader learns who destroyed the Death Star. In the original versions he hears "Son of Anakin Skywalker" and Vader just kind of says "Ok." But in the latest versions he says "How is that possible?" Which kind of makes you think this is when he may realize Palpatine has strung him along more than he ever knew. He begins to realize if Luke is alive, he didn't kill Padme which means Palpatine lied to him. Lot of internal struggle going on there I'd imagine.

    I prefer thinking this is when he realizes it's Luke, not earlier like the comics are portraying.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carabas View Post
    Well...

    The guys name is Luke Skywalker.
    Who lived on Tatooine.
    In the custody of Vader's inlaws.
    Hangs out with Obi-Wan Kenobi.
    In-universe probably looks a lot like him or like Padme too.

    Luke was not in the custody of Vader's inlaws - that would be Padme's side - The Naberries on Naboo
    He was in the custory of Vader's stepfamily - that would be the Lars

    Anakin's mother, Shmi Skywalker was married to Clegg Lars
    Owen was Lars' son and Shmi's stepson
    Therefore, Owen is Anakin's stepbrother and Luke's stepuncle
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