ULTIMATES #3 Discussion/ *spoilers*

[RafDanvers]

ahh Ultimates is the best A team book from Marvel, for sure. The team members are awesome. The ONE and ONLY Captain Marvel is just a badass. Best times to be a Carol fan <3

[Fokken]

-America Chavez. So you're telling me that Nightmask had to de-evolve into an embryo in order to traverse the multiverse, but yet there was Ms. Chavez, just sitting there, who can do the same thing and just get a headache? Doesn't make any sense that Da Costa never recruited her if she was so damn powerful

America turned down Da Costa's offer.
America's involvement with this team is because of the previous failures made by groups like the Illuminati. Somebody needs to supervise these heroes--and shut them down if necessary. -- illustrated in #0.

[norj]

I know that, but still, it's not Doom's fault other folks decide to pull stunts like Beast's. I'm not faulting Ewing for trying to explain it to new readers while still respecting continuity. I'm just saying that I hope this doesn't turn into a "Doom suxx he screwed the time-stream, not Beast or Logan, Doom, so he suxxx and we will kick his butttsss" scenario.

Doom developed the tech that made all time travel shenanigans possible and didn't bother to keep it out of the hands of the rest of the world.

[Steroid]

I love this series so much. Rocafort is killing it on art and Ewing is actually exceeding the very high expectations i have of him. I really do hope that sales stay strong on this title because it is truly something special and i can only pray that i'll get to read it for years to come.

[Aioros22]

It`s amazing to see how high profile the Black Panther has become since the Priest run. Certainly a long way from the perception as a Phantom/jungle Batman, but they seem to be starting to turn him into another "Iron Man". He`s everywhere and acts as if he`s never wrong on his view. That was what burned me off Wolverine ages ago.

That being said, is Ultimates Hercules still around?

[XPac]

Doom developed the tech that made all time travel shenanigans possible and didn't bother to keep it out of the hands of the rest of the world.

The irony here though is that it's mostly the super heroes who are actually the ones "breaking" time and causing the problem with the tech they essentially stole from Doom.

Doom couldn't keep it out of the hands of the heroes because the heroes frankly keep beating him. I think it's fair to say it's more the heroes fault than Dooms quite honestly. Though in the same breath a lot of the uses of time travel was understandable. Had Logan not used it the world would be conquered by Ultron... from his perspective it's worth the risk by a good margin.

[Darthkostis]

Doom developed the tech that made all time travel shenanigans possible and didn't bother to keep it out of the hands of the rest of the world.

The Doomlock works only if you're more machine than man, so I don't see why it matters in the whole context. Its whole purpose is that if you have access to it and are more machine than man, then you can influence the past and change the future. The only time it appeared was in an X-Factor storyline, which didn't show Doom giving access to it to anyone (except for Falcone, but changing the past "erased" that). Therefore, nobody essentially could use it, since neither Beast nor Logan/Sue/Fury are cybernetic organisms. Really, this "retcon" doesn't make any sense at all.

And even if let's say that Beast and/or Fury found a way to bypass the cybernetic requirement (which is unlikely), it's never shown or stated that Doom allowed the world to use his invention. And judging from all of his history, it's unlikely that he'd do such a thing, as it goes against his whole character. So, to summarize, the Doomlock is a throwaway thingy that appeared once and doesn't even make sense in the context of the accusations. Beast and the others broke the time-stream through their own meddling, not Doom. That is all.

EDIT: A Doombox (same as a Doomlock presumably) also appeared in one panel in Namor: The First Mutant Vol 1 #11 where Doom gave it to Namor's son in the future to prevent the destruction of Atlantis and Kristoff's AI Invasion.

[vitruvian]

The Doomlock works only if you're more machine than man, so I don't see why it matters in the whole context. Its whole purpose is that if you have access to it and are more machine than man, then you can influence the past and change the future. The only time it appeared was in an X-Factor storyline, which didn't show Doom giving access to it to anyone (except for Falcone, but changing the past "erased" that). Therefore, nobody essentially could use it, since neither Beast nor Logan/Sue/Fury are cybernetic organisms. Really, this "retcon" doesn't make any sense at all.

And even if let's say that Beast and/or Fury found a way to bypass the cybernetic requirement (which is unlikely), it's never shown or stated that Doom allowed the world to use his invention. And judging from all of his history, it's unlikely that he'd do such a thing, as it goes against his whole character. So, to summarize, the Doomlock is a throwaway thingy that appeared once and doesn't even make sense in the context of the accusations. Beast and the others broke the time-stream through their own meddling, not Doom. That is all.

EDIT: A Doombox (same as a Doomlock presumably) also appeared in one panel in Namor: The First Mutant Vol 1 #11 where Doom gave it to Namor's son in the future to prevent the destruction of Atlantis and Kristoff's AI Invasion.

Except for Beast and Logan actually changing the timeline rather than just splitting off another alternate one as in the classic Marvel Two-In-One story.... and the explanation for that now seems to have been retconned to Doomlocks, incorporated into all or most of the time machines confiscated from Doom or derived from his technology, being usable by everybody rather than just cyborgs. As for Doom not allowing others to use his invention... again, a whole lot of the time travel in the MU has actually been done using his actual time platforms, including the shenanigans in AoU, and that doesn't even cover how many other inventors' time machines derive some part of their tech from examining and reverse-engineering Doom's work. Maybe he would have preferred not to allow anybody else to benefit from his genius in this area, but that's not how it's worked out.

[MindofShadow]

but they seem to be starting to turn him into another "Iron Man". He`s everywhere and acts as if he`s never wrong on his view. That was what burned me off Wolverine ages ago.

Did you miss Hickman's run or something?

[Darthkostis]

Except for Beast and Logan actually changing the timeline rather than just splitting off another alternate one as in the classic Marvel Two-In-One story.... and the explanation for that now seems to have been retconned to Doomlocks, incorporated into all or most of the time machines confiscated from Doom or derived from his technology, being usable by everybody rather than just cyborgs. As for Doom not allowing others to use his invention... again, a whole lot of the time travel in the MU has actually been done using his actual time platforms, including the shenanigans in AoU, and that doesn't even cover how many other inventors' time machines derive some part of their tech from examining and reverse-engineering Doom's work. Maybe he would have preferred not to allow anybody else to benefit from his genius in this area, but that's not how it's worked out.

Me, I don't like it. Ewing's taking a throwaway term from PAD's X-Factor and tries to inject it into every time-platform story ever. But he doesn't also explain how the "cybernetic" part was bypassed. Was that just a scam? Did someone find a way around it? Hell, do the Doomlocks even exist at this point? The X-Factor future where they appeared has been "erased" and in that Namor story, we again, see a future timeline (reffering to them as a "doombox"). We never actually see Doom invent or use the Doomlocks in the present.

As for the time-platform itself, it's been used many times, that's true, but it has evolved since its initial appearance (where IIRC it couldn't even transport certain chemicals/properties). I can't remember every time it was used, but AFAIK, it's been used by tons of characters, and not always with Doom's permission. When Victor uses it, he knows what he can and can't do, and thus, such fiascos are avoided. But when chaps like Fury, Logan and Beast use it, then they do some pretty awful and dumb things. Aagin, without Doom's permission. It's not his fault that others stole it and used it without knowing how to properly do it. The last I saw his time-platform was in the NOW! Spider-Man 2099 where the Maestro tricked Miguel into fixing it so that he could get back to the 616. Then Secret Wars hapenned and we never got to see this play out.

Again, what I'm trying to say is that I really don't get why Ewing has chosen to poorly trace everything back to Doom. Other chaps used time-travel tech and screwed up the timeline. Just because Doom is the "villain" and he created it first that automatically means that he should take the fall? Either way, te execution is sloppy and doesn't make sense, considering that nothing of what Ewing has retconned has ever been even hinted at (that the Doomlocks exist still and that you can bypass the cybernetic part). I'm just not a fan of that.

[XPac]

Me, I don't like it. Ewing's taking a throwaway term from PAD's X-Factor and tries to inject it into every time-platform story ever. But he doesn't also explain how the "cybernetic" part was bypassed. Was that just a scam? Did someone find a way around it? Hell, do the Doomlocks even exist at this point? The X-Factor future where they appeared has been "erased" and in that Namor story, we again, see a future timeline (reffering to them as a "doombox"). We never actually see Doom invent or use the Doomlocks in the present.

As for the time-platform itself, it's been used many times, that's true, but it has evolved since its initial appearance (where IIRC it couldn't even transport certain chemicals/properties). I can't remember every time it was used, but AFAIK, it's been used by tons of characters, and not always with Doom's permission. When Victor uses it, he knows what he can and can't do, and thus, such fiascos are avoided. But when chaps like Fury, Logan and Beast use it, then they do some pretty awful and dumb things. Aagin, without Doom's permission. It's not his fault that others stole it and used it without knowing how to properly do it. The last I saw his time-platform was in the NOW! Spider-Man 2099 where the Maestro tricked Miguel into fixing it so that he could get back to the 616. Then Secret Wars hapenned and we never got to see this play out.

Again, what I'm trying to say is that I really don't get why Ewing has chosen to poorly trace everything back to Doom. Other chaps used time-travel tech and screwed up the timeline. Just because Doom is the "villain" and he created it first that automatically means that he should take the fall? Either way, te execution is sloppy and doesn't make sense, considering that nothing of what Ewing has retconned has ever been even hinted at (that the Doomlocks exist still and that you can bypass the cybernetic part). I'm just not a fan of that.

Blaming the actions of the heroes on Doom was inaccurate IMO, but as far as the usage of Doom locks that was established long before Ewing.

Doom locks became a fad for any writer who wants time travel to effect the main timeline. It's pretty much a given at this point anyone who uses Doom's platform (which is almost everyone) are using Doom locks.

[Aioros22]

Did you miss Hickman's run or something?

Very much so, so I`m glad to hear about it.

[Darthkostis]

Blaming the actions of the heroes on Doom was inaccurate IMO, but as far as the usage of Doom locks that was established long before Ewing.

Doom locks became a fad for any writer who wants time travel to effect the main timeline. It's pretty much a given at this point anyone who uses Doom's platform (which is almost everyone) are using Doom locks.

Still though, it doesn't make any sense is what I'm saying. I don't remember (correct me if I'm wrong though) anyone explaining how and when Doom built the Doomlocks, how he got past the cybernetic part and how everyone suddenly knew how to use them. Hell, how does everyone keep getting their hands on Doom's platform either way? Some cases like AoU or the early F4 stories had an explaination, but as time went one, everyone and their grandmans suddenly had their hands on Doom's tech. Either way, making Doom take the fall for Beast's and all the other heroes' screw-ups is BS in my book.

[vitruvian]

Still though, it doesn't make any sense is what I'm saying. I don't remember (correct me if I'm wrong though) anyone explaining how and when Doom built the Doomlocks, how he got past the cybernetic part and how everyone suddenly knew how to use them. Hell, how does everyone keep getting their hands on Doom's platform either way? Some cases like AoU or the early F4 stories had an explaination, but as time went one, everyone and their grandmans suddenly had their hands on Doom's tech. Either way, making Doom take the fall for Beast's and all the other heroes' screw-ups is BS in my book.

Only for coming up with the technology that allowed for their screw-ups, really... which is a testament to his genius, in a way.

Since the first use of Doom's time platform ever seen in comics, way back in Fantastic Four #5, resulted in, if not a change in the timeline per se, certainly a closed time loop where Ben Grimm became Blackbeard and that was okay because as it turned out Blackbeard had always been a time traveling Ben Grimm, as opposed to splitting off an alternative timeline, I think we can assume for the sake of argument that what we are now calling 'Doom locks' have always been a part of the time platform technology, just not one that thieves or usurpers of his tech always knew how to turn to the 'On' position.

[Darthkostis]

Only for coming up with the technology that allowed for their screw-ups, really... which is a testament to his genius, in a way.

Since the first use of Doom's time platform ever seen in comics, way back in Fantastic Four #5, resulted in, if not a change in the timeline per se, certainly a closed time loop where Ben Grimm became Blackbeard and that was okay because as it turned out Blackbeard had always been a time traveling Ben Grimm, as opposed to splitting off an alternative timeline, I think we can assume for the sake of argument that what we are now calling 'Doom locks' have always been a part of the time platform technology, just not one that thieves or usurpers of his tech always knew how to turn to the 'On' position.

You're right on that one (the Blackbeard thing). My beef with this "retcon" is that essentially they used an ill-defined term to describe that certain phenomenon, while also not giving us certain info. Were the Doomlocks there from the very beginning? Did they apppear in one of the "upgrades"? Was the cybernetic restriction real or not? Did Doom bypass it or did it never even exist in the first place? It's just awfully convenient to say that Doom is responsible for others' goofs through an ill-defined term that's been shoehorned into the time-platform mythos/use.