Is Marvel scared to let Steve Rogers retire?

[WinterSoldier76]

There is also the little fact that this "general comics audience" has so shrinked isn't able to sustain a market anymore. Male White Iron Man, Hulk and Cap, in the latest years, couldn't sell more than 30k, and needed to get relaunched yearly, they weren't hits. They made way less money than a Ms Marvel or an Hakweye with a girl as a co–protagonist. Given that this "general comics audience" is made of grumpy old man that will be dead or unable to read in the next decade or two, it's only normal they are looking for the next readership. And with the hits from the latest decade being comics like Ms. Marvel, Hakweye, Saga, Chew, The Lumberjanes, Rat Queen, Wicked + Divine and so on, it's still clearer that the white male "general comics audience" that needs old white male characters won't be no more. You keep saying diverse characters don't sell and the audience want the classics, but the classics DON'T SELL since a lot of times, 90% of the hits in comics are not from Marvel and DC and all the hits are diverse. Maybe Rogers will be the next Bucky…

I feel stupid even replying to this topic after Penthotal's mic-dropping standing-ovation-deserving post, but while I am enjoying Sam as Cap and where the book is taking him, I think that Steve Rogers as "the man who punched Hitler in the jaw" and then refined by Frank Miller "I stand for nothing but the dream" is ultimately the character who's narrative I want to follow. I'm okay with him being killed (and then brought back) or being depowered or being replaced by old friends, grown up sidekicks, clones and enemies, as long as it adds to his characters narritive.

That said, I think that Sam embodies the same qualities to represent the American values that Steve does, because those values have always been represented by Captain America to ALL people. That's what makes whoever is Captain America in the comics a true hero and defines the character.

[Fuzzy Barbarian]

Isn't the suit Steve wears now from Secret Avengers? When Bucky was Cap? Not reading SW: CA, but it always looked like that one to me.

I think now that they've ACTUALLY made Steve "iconic", it's hard to get him out of a position of power. Personally, I want Steve back as Cap, because he's THE Captain America and the leader of te hero community, like Superman with DC. And this is from someone who thinks Bucky Cap was vastly more interesting.

Buuuut, I've never READ Cap as a retired old man! I'd like to at least be given the chance to! I've always liked the idea of legacy characters, and I like that Marvel's started to embrace it, especially since DC completely abandoned it. Like Danileriver said, it's always best when the mantle is carried because the predecessor is gone. Wally West once said that being the Flash is running your race, then passing the baton to the next guy. That's something I like.

[Danileriver23]

People who want Steve Rogers to retire should be aware that Captain America goes beyond just who puts on the costume, or even an ideology or the symbolism. It's the association and connection of the character Steve Rogers. You hear the name "Captain America" and your mind instantly thinks about Steve Rogers. Writers and editors can push something all they want, but the undeniable truth is that some changes just can't be permenant, especially when they have intentions of using the characters in other media for three more years lol.

I love Dick Grayson, I love Tim Drake. But I know they could never be Batman. I could write the greatest story about Tim Drake as Batman looking for Bruce Wayne and the Joker after they've disappeared, and a later writer may touch on that, but most writers would probably want to use Bruce Wayne.

Then how do you explain carol danvers?

[Danileriver23]

Also, just for clarification, when I said marvel is scared to "retire" Rogers, I didn't mean permanently. We all know he'll be back eventually.

What's bothering me is that they aren't retiring him WHILE sam is cap. Big difference.

[PhantomStranger]

Originally Posted by penthotal
I think the real point about Sam as Cap it's that as a young black man he is better capable to represent today America than a white guy from the 40s. But not many people on this thread seems to get it. Making Steve old was an excuse like another to make this change. The fact that Steve is now able to fight again doesn't mean anything, it's still a man of the past that does not represent or really understand the reality of today united states.

Part of the core CA concept has always been to compare and contrast Steve Rogers' worldview, ethos, and character with those of modern society. Steve Rogers stands for timeless American values: justice, fair play, love of God/family/country, acceptance of duty and responsibility.

I can certainly see how he would make a generation that seems to have thrown those out the window uncomfortable. To which I reply: "GOOD! You should be uncomfortable!" More than ever, as a cultural figure we need Steve Rogers' Captain America.

And before you go claiming that Sam also represents those things...then he can't well be claimed to be representing "modern America", now can he?

It's all about the legacy, my man. The shield, the hammer, and even the mantle of the Wolverine represent something greater than the individual.

Your statemenT: "All of the race-lifting and gender-bending is because Marvel knows that the "diversity" characters pretty much don't sell unless tied to a popular name (Cap, Thor, Ms Marvel, etc) as a "legacy". So they cave in to the "Twitter-activists" and "Facebook Reformers" because they're the ones with the power right now in society."

You have no idea how provincial that sounds.

You have no idea how typically ultra-left elitist that sounds...and is.

There is also the little fact that this "general comics audience" has so shrinked isn't able to sustain a market anymore. Male White Iron Man, Hulk and Cap, in the latest years, couldn't sell more than 30k, and needed to get relaunched yearly, they weren't hits. They made way less money than a Ms Marvel or an Hakweye with a girl as a co–protagonist. Given that this "general comics audience" is made of grumpy old man that will be dead or unable to read in the next decade or two, it's only normal they are looking for the next readership. And with the hits from the latest decade being comics like Ms. Marvel, Hakweye, Saga, Chew, The Lumberjanes, Rat Queen, Wicked + Divine and so on, it's still clearer that the white male "general comics audience" that needs old white male characters won't be no more. You keep saying diverse characters don't sell and the audience want the classics, but the classics DON'T SELL since a lot of times, 90% of the hits in comics are not from Marvel and DC and all the hits are diverse. Maybe Rogers will be the next Bucky…

Here's the sales estimates from Nov of last year (most recent fully computed month):

1 Dark Knight III Master Race 1 $5.99 DC 440,234
2 Star Wars Vader Down 1 $4.99 Marvel 384,969
3 Deadpool 1 $4.99 Marvel 180,565
4 Secret Wars 7 $3.99 Marvel 177,019
5 Extraordinary X-Men 1 $4.99 Marvel 133,716
6 All New All Different Avengers 1 $4.99 Marvel 128,570
7 Star Wars 11 $3.99 Marvel 126,780
8 Uncanny X-Men 600 $5.99 Marvel 126,447
9 Star Wars 12 $3.99 Marvel 123,133
10 All New Wolverine 1 $4.99 Marvel 119,786
11 Darth Vader 13 $3.99 Marvel 113,448
12 Mighty Thor 1 $4.99 Marvel 112,053
13 Batman 46 $3.99 DC 106,989
14 Amazing Spider-Man 3 $3.99 Marvel 93,848
15 Deadpool 2 $3.99 Marvel 92,008
16 Darth Vader 12 $3.99 Marvel 90,077
17 Batman Europa 1 $4.99 DC 80,721
18 Ms. Marvel 1 $4.99 Marvel 79,222
19 Carnage 1 $3.99 Marvel 69,773
20 All New Hawkeye

http://www.comichron.com/monthlycomi...5/2015-11.html

Four out of the top 20 isn't very good, esp with only 2 in the top 10. The rest are what you derisively refer to as "grumpy old white men" comics. Hawkeye doesn't count, because he is still Clint Barton. Putting in a female co-lead is nothing new (just a Mockingbird replacement in any event).

[Danileriver23]

...how are deadpool, spiderman, carnage, and extraordinary x-men grumpy old men?...

[HsssH]

Its not like these titles are selling any better than their previous versions (ignoring female Thor) ignoring big bumps for #1-#2 issues. Captain America is already at same/lower sales than it was with Rogers at the helm.

[RLAAMJR.]

As I really see it, Marvel wants Captain America as the face of Marvel, not Iron Man

[whiterabbit]

Then how do you explain carol danvers?

That's why I stress the word "SOME things can't be changed" when I wrote that. Let's be honest here: Mar-Vell was probably used by two or three good writers and appeared in a couple good stories, but he was far and away from maintaining a permanent status quo and his most iconic moment isn't him fighting Thanos or shattering a Cosmic Cube, but him dying of cancer. Ted Kord as Blue Beetle is one of the few legacy heroes to actually work, but how much exposure or fans did Dan Garrett really have considering Fox comics and Charlton comics was defunct and closed?

If it was my choice, I would love to see Tim Drake as Batman for a story. But there is not a single fraction of me who believes that would stick just because Bruce Wayne is the image of Batman. Tim would not have all the skills, the fighting, or experience, but he'd be much more vulnersble and make a killer detective book.

[penthotal]

Here's the sales estimates from Nov of last year (most recent fully computed month):

Four out of the top 20 isn't very good, esp with only 2 in the top 10. The rest are what you derisively refer to as "grumpy old white men" comics. Hawkeye doesn't count, because he is still Clint Barton. Putting in a female co-lead is nothing new (just a Mockingbird replacement in any event).

I count like 11 issue #1, an event book (SW), an anniversary book (UXM 600), and 4 Star Wars book in this TOP 20, so doesn't seem to be representative of anything at all to me. I get your position though, you are a conservative and you are pissed marvel has gone progressive, well, it's been acquired by DISNEY, unless this changes, they won't never go back.

[Cmbmool]

Marvel wasn't afraid to let Nick Fury retire after they dragged his name through the mud.

[dragonmp93]

Marvel wasn't afraid to let Nick Fury retire after they dragged his name through the mud.

Well, that's because Nick L. Jackson Fury is the popular one.

[Old Man Ollie 1962]

People can be very frightened of change.

[WinterSoldier76]

Part of the core CA concept has always been to compare and contrast Steve Rogers' worldview, ethos, and character with those of modern society. Steve Rogers stands for timeless American values: justice, fair play, love of God/family/country, acceptance of duty and responsibility.

I can certainly see how he would make a generation that seems to have thrown those out the window uncomfortable. To which I reply: "GOOD! You should be uncomfortable!" More than ever, as a cultural figure we need Steve Rogers' Captain America.

And before you go claiming that Sam also represents those things...then he can't well be claimed to be representing "modern America", now can he?

I disagree here. To me, Sam represents everything that Steve did as Cap, but just coming from a different angle of sorts. They both represent "The American Dream" and that can be interpreted in many ways. Steve Rogers as Captain America is my all time favorite comicbook character, and he's NEVER been depicted as right wing or conservative (alternate universes withstanding) in fact history has shown that he's MORE apt to go against the United States government if the basic rights of ALL people are being jeapordized.

[whiterabbit]

People can be very frightened of change.

Sam wears the suit, carries the shield, and even uses the name. But everyone still associates Captain America with Steve Rogers. People should not be afraid of change or writers experimenting because trying new things can be good (unless it's like the Crossing or Heroes Reborn). But this is not the first time Steve has stopped being Captain America or Thor not being "Thor" and people should just let the writers tell their stories and be done with it.

Did everyone really believe Dick Grayson was going to stay Batman after Final Crisis?