I like the red hood comics but

[hero talk]

The OP made a point of single out Lobdell as the one overusing the All Caste plus, a lot of the faults a lot of people find in the concept were stuff introduced by Tynion on his tenure, and THAT version of the All Caste I'm more than happy to let it rot in hell.

I did not read tynion run so I did not know he used all caste to was it really bad please tell me about it

[Aioros22]

The OP made a point of single out Lobdell as the one overusing the All Caste plus, a lot of the faults a lot of people find in the concept were stuff introduced by Tynion on his tenure, and THAT version of the All Caste I'm more than happy to let it rot in hell.

Such as...?

From what I recalled the flaws often brought up were a lacking conclusion of a storyarc that ran longer than it needed to and Shiva being owned in two panels. Outside of that Tynion`s use of the Al Caste wasn`t really breaking Loedebll`s concept apart.

The League of Assassins is another matter, since neither created it. That I could see.

[Dark_Tzitzimine]

Jason pulling the all blades out of thin air, being "the chosen one", learning a depowering attack just by seeing it...

[JasonTodd428]

My problems with Tynion's run had less to do with his use of the All Caste mythos and more to do with the overall clumsiness of how the entire thing was handled by him. I also didn't care for his flagrant overuse of melodrama during parts of the story and the entire thing seemed overly rushed to me as well. Boom The Untitled are defeated in one fell swoop because they all just suddenly decided after years of being separated to get together over a supped up Laz. Pit. They basically got nerfed here, which is what I believe Dark is getting at. I do have to agree with him though. I don't think Tynion had a clear grasp of how the Untitled functioned and that led him to treat them as generic bad guys with a mystical bent. I also don't think he understood Jason's role as a member of the All Caste all that well either.

[hero talk]

I'm ok with talking about tynions run to not just lobdells I just really want the all caste to go a way also the magic sword was a poor choice for jason
when I heard about it I was afraid his books would sell so bad they would kill him all over again and the untitled they might as well have called themselves the we couldn't think of a name organization

[hero talk]

how come jason felt sad when he found the all caste dead but not when batman die in end game he said he new batman would come back but what makes him think the all caste wouldn't

[Dark_Tzitzimine]

My problems with Tynion's run had less to do with his use of the All Caste mythos and more to do with the overall clumsiness of how the entire thing was handled by him. I also didn't care for his flagrant overuse of melodrama during parts of the story and the entire thing seemed overly rushed to me as well. Boom The Untitled are defeated in one fell swoop because they all just suddenly decided after years of being separated to get together over a supped up Laz. Pit. They basically got nerfed here, which is what I believe Dark is getting at. I do have to agree with him though. I don't think Tynion had a clear grasp of how the Untitled functioned and that led him to treat them as generic bad guys with a mystical bent. I also don't think he understood Jason's role as a member of the All Caste all that well either.

Oh, Tynion's run definitely had way more issues than a simple misunderstanding of both the All-Caste and the Untitled; I can't argue that. I was just using those elements as an example of the usual criticisms towards the All-Caste concept as whole that are commonly found on Message Boards and how those elements are Tynion's fault, not Lobdell's.

how come jason felt sad when he found the all caste dead but not when batman die in end game he said he new batman would come back but what makes him think the all caste wouldn't

Because Jason literally talked with Ducra's ghost and knew for certain that they were gone for good, while on RH/A he was sure Bruce would come back. And even then, during their fight against Underbelly, Jason realized he was actually sad about Bruce's demise. That's why he was so happy of finding him alive in the Youth Center in issue 6.

[AJpyro]

how come jason felt sad when he found the all caste dead but not when batman die in end game he said he new batman would come back but what makes him think the all caste wouldn't

Come on. Like Batman would stay dead? Some other organization that no one knew about? Definitely not coming back. Bruce Wayne. Pfft.

[hero talk]

Come on. Like Batman would stay dead? Some other organization that no one knew about? Definitely not coming back. Bruce Wayne. Pfft.

yes we know batman is favored but how does jason know that

[Aioros22]

Jason pulling the all blades out of thin air, being "the chosen one", learning a depowering attack just by seeing it...

Out of thin air like what?

Being the "chosen one" is left to the devices of taste, but Loedebll also touched upon it. He was just more subtle. If you recall in RATHO #1, Jason survives an initiation process that Ducra claims nobody in centuries did. If you`re telling me that you dislike the way Tynion handles the writing its all the same to me, but he didn`t exactly deconstructed the Al-Caste from Lodbell apart.

[Dark_Tzitzimine]

Out of thin air like what?

Being the "chosen one" is left to the devices of taste, but Loedebll also touched upon it. He was just more subtle. If you recall in RATHO #1, Jason survives an initiation process that Ducra claims nobody in centuries did.

Yes, Jason passes the initiation but Ducra points out she doesn't know if is because he's worthy or just stubborn. At no point is implied Jason is a chosen one of any sort. Lobdell rejects further the idea by having Jason state he is no Chosen one despite Ducra's intentions on Secret Origin 5

[Aioros22]

Of which Jason answers "cant I be both"?

Jason later indeed does that, but again Ducra kind of set the thinking of the possibility for Jason`s untapped potential, as Talia did before. Jason rejecting the role after dealing with the Untitled or not is perhaps more a character bit than a writer statement. But I can`t really 100% claim either way.

[AJpyro]

yes we know batman is favored but how does jason know that

Cause its Batman. If you can survive being killed/thrust through time by Darkside, you can survive almost anything.