Secret Wars 9 *Spoilers*

[Biclopcicle]

I was thinking yesterday about the Fantastic Four while running the snowblower (Winter is here) and it hit me that the F4 were The Flagship book back in the day because so much of the world building for the Marvel universe happens there. It's actually very fitting that here at the end we see the F4 doing literally that, only on a much larger scale. A very good ending.

Yes! Absolutely. People have criticized Hickman's Avengers and Secret Wars as being basically aFF book, but to restart Marvel with the FF at its helm is perfect.

Other thoughts- I thought it was a beautiful, perfect ending to Hickman's Marvel works to this moment. We are Doom's shortcomings as God finally being confronted by Victor and, despite his wrath, Reed and Owenrecognized his efforts and gave him a new lease on life. Fantastic!

[XPac]

So did Namor actually die when Doom blasted him? If not that could explain why he remembers. It's too bad he was basically wasted in this mini and then served up to the SS without a strong showing for his last major event.

Honestly I doubt it's his last major event, so it probably won't matter.

If I actually believed for a second he wouldn't be brought back to life someway somehow I genuinely would be POed that they gave arguably their first super hero such a terrible send off.

I don't think Namor was entirely wasted though. In what little we saw of him, I actually found him pretty enjoyable.

[JKtheMac]

So did Namor actually die when Doom blasted him? If not that could explain why he remembers. It's too bad he was basically wasted in this mini and then served up to the SS without a strong showing for his last major event.

I suspect Reed has total power over life and death at the end of this book so it may not matter. Doom may have had this power too. The implied resets could have been literally restarting events. Indeed it is entitrely possible the whole of Battleworld as we saw it was reset back to the last incursion with Reed replacing Doom.

[JKtheMac]

The image of Reed when he says "I mean Victor" is an arresting image. It stopped me in my tracks. I probably spent as much time staring at it as I did the rest of the art. This is a really beautiful comic.

[JKtheMac]

So, they recall a different history than the rest of the Earth on which they exist? One without Incursions, while everybody else (which is everybody, remember the UN announcement) remembers the Incursions? That seems problematic.

The only reason anyone is talking about the incursions not happening is because the original poster thought T'Challa reset his timeline. Of course that didn't happen, we wouldn't need a new universe at all.

[vitruvian]

The only reason anyone is talking about the incursions not happening is because the original poster thought T'Challa reset his timeline. Of course that didn't happen, we wouldn't need a new universe at all.

Except he did use the Time Gem, and appeared at the same point that New Avengers started... just that when the Incursion and Black Swan originally appeared, it's the rocket launch instead.

So, whether that's him traveling back in time (within the new version of the universe, created with a past?) or him bringing the old Wakanda into the present, you still have the problem of the population of Wakanda having different history and memories than everybody else on the planet. They wouldn't recall any of the Incursions business, or the later phases of the conflict with Atlantis, or Infinity, and so on. And as they engage more with the rest of the world through T'Challa's space colonization program (not to mention staffing the Triskelion in Ultimates), that's going to become more and more apparent. Not saying that you're necessarily wrong, but there are definitely some weird implications.

And Steve Rogers' dialogue in this week's issue of Squadron also makes me question whether, as somebody who's not a life raft survivor, he remembers about the Incursions and Namor pulling the trigger (multiple times, with the Cabal).

[Knives]

I wonder how it would be the fight between Doom and BP if it were animated hehe.

[Double 0]

You know, I don't think it'd be that far off if some people were informed of what happened in Secret Wars, much like House of M.

But even then, it'd have to be a lot of people. More than necessary.

[JKtheMac]

Except he did use the Time Gem, and appeared at the same point that New Avengers started... just that when the Incursion and Black Swan originally appeared, it's the rocket launch instead.

So, whether that's him traveling back in time (within the new version of the universe, created with a past?) or him bringing the old Wakanda into the present, you still have the problem of the population of Wakanda having different history and memories than everybody else on the planet. They wouldn't recall any of the Incursions business, or the later phases of the conflict with Atlantis, or Infinity, and so on. And as they engage more with the rest of the world through T'Challa's space colonization program (not to mention staffing the Triskelion in Ultimates), that's going to become more and more apparent. Not saying that you're necessarily wrong, but there are definitely some weird implications.

And Steve Rogers' dialogue in this week's issue of Squadron also makes me question whether, as somebody who's not a life raft survivor, he remembers about the Incursions and Namor pulling the trigger (multiple times, with the Cabal).

An awful lot of Wakandans died pretty soon after this, and T'Challa had no real way of stopping it happening so going back to that time would be pointless. Bringing them to the future resurrects them. Sure they dont have a memory of a chunk of history, it was a horrid history, probably worse than the rest of the world for those months.

[KOSLOX]

I wonder if T'challa informed Shuri (who should be alive, and thus technically should still be queen) of what was going on and averted the continuing war with Namor, I assume he must have since the SS wiped it out 8 months later rather than Wakanda, which is makes me further wonder if the destruction of Atlantis is a fixed point in all timelines.

Also, there should not be an Infinity in this timeline, at least under the same parameters since the builders wouldn't be gunning for Earth (at least for the same reasons).

[JKtheMac]

What I find most exciting, and I hope they don't backslide this, finally the multiverse isn't just a bunch of branched timelines. A universe can contain just about anything Franklin can dream up. I hope this also changes how Marvel deals with time-travel. They have been avoiding the branched timelines for quite some time now but maybe we will see the end of that once and for all.

[wolverine7230]

The thing I can't get my head around is how ANY version of the entirety of Marvel NOW! can take place within 8 months, no matter how condensed this new timeline is. There's just too much there...

I might just have to create a timeline that conclusively disproves all of this...

Is there anything (apart from New avengers, tro, incursions) that we know simply did not occur in this timeline?

[JKtheMac]

I wonder if T'challa informed Shuri (who should be alive, and thus technically should still be queen) of what was going on and averted the continuing war with Namor, I assume he must have since the SS wiped it out 8 months later rather than Wakanda, which is makes me further wonder if the destruction of Atlantis is a fixed point in all timelines.

Also, there should not be an Infinity in this timeline, at least under the same parameters since the builders wouldn't be gunning for Earth (at least for the same reasons).

I'm confused. What timeline are you referring too? We have ANAD and that is a reset. in many ways it's not even that soft a reset but I am sure everyone woke up on day one and didn't notice the difference. Everything happened as before and somehow the heroes saved the world from the last incursion.

[Kasper Cole]

So Secret Wars 9 is officially out. Spoilers and thoughts ahead:

spoilers:

Seriously, Spoilers. I warned you. The book basically breaks into three pieces. There's the Doom/T'Challa battle that serves as the finale of Battleworld. Doom wins but realizes that this was all a distraction and leaves without killing T'Challa. He wisely flees to find Owen where he's confronted (verbally) by Susan, who has learned he killed Strange. Doom finds that even though he wants to stay and fix this, he has to move on towards Owen and regretfully leaves Susan and Val. In the Molecule-cave(tm) The Maker has predictably turned on Reed but managed to forget about Molecule Man in his arrogance. Molecule Man saves Reed and does away with The Maker. Doom arrives to confront Reed but finds that Owen has reduced them to the same powerlevel. Owen wants to hear Reed's side too. There's fistcuffs galore as Reed and Doom work through years of mutual history culminating in Doom admitting that Reed would have done a better job of it. Owen agrees, Battleworld appears to end (more on that later) and T'Challa uses the Time Gem to save his life. We move to Act III Here we find that T'Challa has time travelled back to the events of New Avengers Vol 2 Issue 1. Things play out right up to the point where the incursion is discovered only this time there is no incursion, just the birth of the Wakandan space program. Continuity fixed! (More later). We find Reed rebuilding the multiverse with Owen and Franklin's help. Sue, Reed, and the Future Foundation are planning to go on the greatest adventure of all and we learn that Reed is the one to fix Doom's face. It's a silent scene at the end with Doom, but immensely powerful as we see Doom ultimately learned a powerful lesson (think the quiet epilogue to Infinity Gauntlet with Thanos and Warlock). The END!

end of spoilers

I think you misread T'Challa's speech near the end. That wasn't the birth of the Wakandan space program, they've had one for some time now. T'Challa was saying that they need to expand their space program to start exploring more of the universe and the multiverse.

[JKtheMac]

The thing I can't get my head around is how ANY version of the entirety of Marvel NOW! can take place within 8 months, no matter how condensed this new timeline is. There's just too much there...

I might just have to create a timeline that conclusively disproves all of this...

Is there anything (apart from New avengers, tro, incursions) that we know simply did not occur in this timeline?

Trying to make sense of the compressed timeline of Marvel is fruitless. The way they think of it there (in the Marvel offices) the time is normal speed but when you zoom in to look at the detail it all expands outwards. It doesn't work logically. It works fine as a loose framwork with some handwaving and a bit of distraction. Your head will hurt if you treat it as a real world.

Edit: somehow I completely misunderstood what you were saying but I will just leave my reply there as a truism that has nothing to do with your question.