Secret Wars 9 *Spoilers*

[jackolover]

can you confirm for 100% certainty that reed remembered everything down to the last detail, every single 616 character, their history, all events of their lives and that it's been recreated? if not, then "everything which happened in the past" cannot be claimed.

That's a hard one, but there is the underlying thought that there is a magical connection to any realities completeness, in just a remnant of its universe. So all Reed has to do is focus on that remnant, and it replicates all that reality in its entirety. I think it's how Doom did it too, on Battleworld.

[JKtheMac]

Not necessarily... some of the universes Franklin has created before have included some pretty novel creatures and characters and settings, not just carbon copies of Earth, and there's no reason he can't imagine things without having been to certain types of places. Heck, for all we know there might be MLP and Uncle Grandpa universes out there now, or ones loosely analogous to whatever kids his age are actually reading and watching these days.

And us, don't forget we owe our existance to Franklin, Reed and Molecule Man. May they be praised forever for bringing us a creation of pure science.

[JKtheMac]

As far as I can tell it was either created by T'Challa or Franklin, Reed, and Owen. Hickman apparently couldn't decide whether or not T'Challa was using the time gem or reality gem and still hasn't made a decision so I'm going to go with Franklin, Reed, and Owen since they're actually shown creating universes.

While I think it's fine to have ambiguous endings, and certainly there have been plenty of stories that are stronger because of it, this one in particular needed to be unambiguous because it's supposed to be the foundation for everything else that comes after it.

Or you could argue, because he isn't going to be writing a major flagship arc anytime soon he would be leaving things open for interpretation for other writers. It's quite polite.

[jackolover]

I think that point could be massaged into working out though. The Builders are a multiversal civilization. If survivors of other realities know about the incursions happening, then they would know. Either way their superflow constructs would have failed and they'd have pinned that on Earth. Or they simply realized that there was a Multiversal Contraction to a single timeline/reality together with the start of a rebuilding and tracked that to Earth. One way or another, I think a lot of that story could be salvaged.

Looking back on it from that point of view, yes I could see the Builders having caused Infinity still, if everybody remembers Incursions in ANAD.

Who has the infinity gems? Still in possession of T'Challa? Given to Reed and co.?

I'm still considering the Infinity Gems Panther was using was not the 616 gems and they disappeared. I'm still thinking the Infinity Gems may still be with the Illuminati, but, probably not if they were scattered after Caps use in the second Incursion. So probably scattered in ANAD.

I'm starting to think that it's only a matter of time before Marvel will be required like DC was with Convergence to explain how the multiverse works now - we know it exists but whether there's an infinite number of universes or established ones or new ones is probably important.

For a while there, after the white out of #9, there were no universes. Then Reed produced the ANAD, then picked up another handful of Battleworld reality remnant and made that Universe and so on. 8 months later, I still think Reed/Franky/Owen are out there somewhere making those 22 universes Doom saved, then started making up universes Franky liked.

I started to suspect very early into Secret Wars that this run would not add anything further to the Avengers run which means that run literally ends with Steve and Tony trying to kill each other at the end of the world. The literal theme at the end is that a team of heroes that big failed in the end in such a spectacular fashion that they not only failed to stop the Incursions but ended up literally at each others throats as it all came down.

That is some bleak stuff right there.

It's not without precedent though and I think gets at a deeper truth regarding head vs heart. Or Idealism vs. Pragmatism. It might also contrast with the F4/FF run in the sense that a family can do what a team can not.

Any way you slice it though that is a rough and brutal place to end an Avengers run. I'm actually surprised he got away with that.

I think that's a bit harsh saying the Avengers end up at each other's throats. Most stories don't end with Incursions knocking on your door every 8 hours. Most stories of heroes end with a heroic death that everyone honours and celebrates, and it's just that Hickman, or Marvel, chose Incursions as a means of moving the MU some place else, that Steve and Tony were at each other's throats. None of the other Avengers ended that way. You could say Steve and Tony symbolised the two distinct differences in philosophy by those two gentlemen, so their struggle was always ultimately never to give into each other?

[JKtheMac]

That's a hard one, but there is the underlying thought that there is a magical connection to any realities completeness, in just a remnant of its universe. So all Reed has to do is focus on that remnant, and it replicates all that reality in its entirety. I think it's how Doom did it too, on Battleworld.

Before this issue we mostly assumed the universe was an amalgam reboot, we saw evidence of a mixture due to Miles meeting his mother. Now on the other hand we may be left with a universe only subtlety different to 616 with a slightly altered Wakanda and a few people around Miles. Also, because the universe was probably created consistently there is no reason to belive the Wakandans will notice the difference. Their reality will be slightly different as will their memories, but the broad sweep of history will be the same.

[BMartini]

Well that was a long read but I liked the comments almost as much as I loved this event...and I may I say that I called the ending a few months ago with the reeds/owen being the new beyonders...its fitting for them and marvel in general...couple theories I liked from this thread: That BP used the reality/time gem to bring his wakanda to the new MU and use it to explore instead of war
. The father, son, holy ghost nod is nice and I didnt notice that immediately...
. I dont think that was the 616 or NuMarvel gauntlet that BP was wielding...
. the reason the UU characters bled into NuMarvel is because the two were joined on battleworld in Ultimate End Domain...
. I also have no clue how the SS characters got here....
Overall this was my fave marvel event...ever! Sad to see Hickman go...but happy where Ewing is leading us now

[BMartini]

And I guess I haveta re read my silver surfer cause i was sure he made Numarvel when I read it the first time

[jackolover]

Before this issue we mostly assumed the universe was an amalgam reboot, we saw evidence of a mixture due to Miles meeting his mother. Now on the other hand we may be left with a universe only subtlety different to 616 with a slightly altered Wakanda and a few people around Miles. Also, because the universe was probably created consistently there is no reason to belive the Wakandans will notice the difference. Their reality will be slightly different as will their memories, but the broad sweep of history will be the same.

Yeah, you bring up a good point about Miles' mother being resurrected in ANAD, perhaps being an amalgum universe. How Reed could have known that, I don't know, unless Miles told Reed his mother was dead, then Reed could have made that better. They had lots of discussion on Battleworld we aren't privy too, before the plans to overthrow Doom went into effect. A lot of information could have been exchanged, like for example Panther knowing when Reed took over, he would land in Wakanda in NA #1. Maybe people discussed preserving the Squadron Supreme from Battleworld, in ANAD because none of their realities made it to Battleworld, and didn't realise the SS would become such a problem, especially Namor.

[The Whovian]

I haven't yet, but I think this series will be looked upon better when read all at once. The delays really hurt it and sometimes when I go back and read a series all at once, it's a lot better than the first time.

[Wiccan]

I think that what really ruined was the fact that the ANAD books were released in like issue 6. That should REALLY ended in the beginning of the relaunch.

[scribbleMind]

And I guess I haveta re read my silver surfer cause i was sure he made Numarvel when I read it the first time

He played a role, but he didn't make it. He chose Reed's creation over his own. Otherwise, I imagine that there would either not have been enough space for it to exist, or it would have been overwritten entirely.

[jackolover]

I totally disagree with that. I think New Avengers showed how they screwed up and things got worse almost excruciatingly. Each major mistake from Tony, Reed, T'Challa, and the rest of the Illuminati, escalated to the point where not even the heralded Avengers World could avoid the weight of it. And when things blew up, it was rough to see how just plain stubborn and vindictive Steve and the other Avengers got. How ugly and overall useless the feud got.

And then the capper that Tony knew the whole time it was going to go down a path like it did added to the tragedy. But I get if it wasn't your cup of tea.

I still see the darkness that the Avengers had become under Hickman as synthetically manufactured, and don't criticise them for that. It was like Civil War in that the characters had no control over their story anymore, and it ran aground. Millar and Hickman created stories where super heroes couldn't function, and waited to see what would happen with them. In CW, Cap was killed and Dark Reign took over. In Secret Wars, the multiverse was destroyed, and only a remnant survived, to be used as seeds to make a fresh multiverse. In both cases, the Avengers were not given the freedom to operate how they wanted. They were systematically frustrated at every turn, so who could operate under those conditions? None of the heroes were allowed to blossom in CW and SW.

I think that's the reason right there. I did not see or feel the roughness of it. I hate every character in the comic because they were all acting stupid, idiotic, selfish, and full of themselves. It didn't feel natural, bleak, nor tragic. Just... honestly... frustrating. It felt artificial, like I could Hickman's fingerprints all over it, twisting and manipulating everyone in acting a certain way to fit his own constricted and narrow vision. I see no tragedy in it. Just something artificial that wants to be seen as tragic.

OMG. You see the same thing.

[BMartini]

So r we getting an epilogue or is this it?

[jackolover]

I think that what really ruined was the fact that the ANAD books were released in like issue 6. That should REALLY ended in the beginning of the relaunch.

I'm not sure that ANAD spoiled SW. Information gleaned through ANAD added to evidence of how ANAD was manufactured by Reed Richards, otherwise we could not have had all this discussion without ANAD having been out there.

I think that plays into Doom's unwillingness to let go. Namely his humanity, his flaws. I mean, it was part of the theme the whole time.

Do you think that devilish smile on Dooms face at the end of #9 was Victor satisfied that he achieved his secret plan all along, by having Reed Richards win in the end, and Victor got what he always wanted? I was aware during reading Secret Wars how lacksidasical Doom did everything on Battleworld, as though it was just treading water until the real story started coming along. And even when the Raftees were revealed, Doom didn't snap his fingers and reset it all back again. The real story was after the whiteout of Secret Wars #1, Doom knew the Raft survivors were in Stranges possession. How could he not? All it took was for the discovery of Thanos' raft, and Strange had to open Reeds raft and hey presto, Doom gets what he wants?

Exactly. People don't seem to understand what the power of God would actually entail.

If there is ANYTHING you cannot do, you are not omnipotent.

The fact alone that Doom and T'Challa had some kind of slug-fest is just outright stupid and shows them both (remember: two guys that are supposed to be about the smartest guys on the planet) as unimaginative morons. I could do far more with omnipotence than either of those buffoons and I'm not one of the 11 smartest people on the planet like they are supposed to be.

It does make you wonder about Doom, doesn't it? Having all that power and lowering himself to physical encounters? I found those behaviours of Doom signs of his psychosis, or, that he was manipulating the situation to get to the end it did. I mean, why strangle Richards and debate him. Just zap, and he's gone. But the child in Doom couldn't play any other way than what he did.

Do you think a Human mind had limits in the way of handling the Infinity Gauntlet? I had the idea that Molecule Man was the one Ominipotent and Doom was the handler (to a point) of that power. It didn't bother me that much the outcome of the match.

The forming of the new multiverse had Owen Reece splitting off bits of himself to help the universe form, and when the last universe is made, the FF will use the last of Owen Reece to return to ANAD, so Owen Reece will be totally depleted of his omnipotence in the end.

[Iron Maiden]

I'm not sure that ANAD spoiled SW. Information gleaned through ANAD added to evidence of how ANAD was manufactured by Reed Richards, otherwise we could not have had all this discussion without ANAD having been out there.




Do you think that devilish smile on Dooms face at the end of #9 was Victor satisfied that he achieved his secret plan all along, by having Reed Richards win in the end, and Victor got what he always wanted? I was aware during reading Secret Wars how lacksidasical Doom did everything on Battleworld, as though it was just treading water until the real story started coming along. And even when the Raftees were revealed, Doom didn't snap his fingers and reset it all back again. The real story was after the whiteout of Secret Wars #1, Doom knew the Raft survivors were in Stranges possession. How could he not? All it took was for the discovery of Thanos' raft, and Strange had to open Reeds raft and hey presto, Doom gets what he wants?



It does make you wonder about Doom, doesn't it? Having all that power and lowering himself to physical encounters? I found those behaviours of Doom signs of his psychosis, or, that he was manipulating the situation to get to the end it did. I mean, why strangle Richards and debate him. Just zap, and he's gone. But the child in Doom couldn't play any other way than what he did.

Man, you got a couple of key things wrong in this post. Doom had to fight Reed the old fashioned way in H2H because Owen took back the power. Since both Reed and Victor didn't bring a hamburger for him to eat, he said that they were equal. And Doom did not know about the first raft that Doctor Strange discovered. Knowing that Doom was not omniscient he kept it for two years "away from prying eyes" on the Hidden Isle of Aggamatto. When Doom saw Reed as one of the survivors he was surprised because he said he searched in every kingdom for him over the years.


On another note, IGN's review of Secret Wars scores it as a 10 out of 10