Secret Wars 9 *Spoilers*

[Biclopcicle]

Ribicface.jpg

Maybe I missed a couple lol...I thought the art was fantastic, but I gotta poke a little fun at some of Ribic's faces

[jphamlore]

Here's a new theory I just had: white space is not nothingness. White space is everything-ness. Everything that has ever been or will be is in white space. As Hickman showed in New Avengers, someone like Doom can pull a time machine out of it.

The original Multiverse was part of white space. But under ordinary circumstance it could not be located in white space. However T'Challa had an Infinity Gem and he had the DNA residual energy signatures from his ancestors in his mind, so he was able to find something of the Earth before the Incursions homing in on the DNA of his Wakanda ancestors. Thus we are shown Battleworld dissolving into white space, T'Challa grabbing a Gem and thinking about his ancestral blood, and then he's on the Earth he wanted.

[jackolover]

I thought their connection was picked up from Earth X. That story had a lot of great concepts and Hickman did borrow the Celestial gestating in Earth thing from them for S.H.I.E.L.D.. Was there a connection between the two hinted at earlier than Earth X?

Is this going to be the end of story beats hitting with Earth X? Probably not. Old man Rogers, Hydra squids on people's heads, Watcher with his eyes plucked out (Original Sin).

[Yagamifire]

These "what actually happened with T'Challa" theories are thoughtful...but, more than anything, they're illustrating how poorly conveyed a lot of stuff in Secret Wars was

[jphamlore]

These "what actually happened with T'Challa" theories are thoughtful...but, more than anything, they're illustrating how poorly conveyed a lot of stuff in Secret Wars was

No. It is right there in Hickman's Marvel work, and right there on the page end of Hickman's Secret Wars.

T'Challa says, "... blood," and at the same time the young are performing a ceremony with one saying, "... so we remember where we came from ... on the way to where we are going."

So Hickman explicitly shows blood, inherited DNA, is some kind of signal that allows one to find one's way home again after journeying out into the great unknown. And that's what T'Challa has just done. He has just used one of the Infinity Gems to find his way back home again from Battleworld back to Earth at the beginning of the Incursions.

Hickman also makes reference to some sort of Sundiata Code. There is a Western African Epic of Sundiata that among other themes reflects on the eternal dance between two forces of family inheritance, unity badenya sown by having the same father and mother, disunity fadenya sown by having the same father but different mothers. Yet fadenya is not purely evil, as it can be a force to inspire pushing outwards to find new lands. And that is what T'Challa proposes to do with Wakanda, to drag humanity into traveling the stars.

[jackolover]

Here's a new theory I just had: white space is not nothingness. White space is everything-ness. Everything that has ever been or will be is in white space. As Hickman showed in New Avengers, someone like Doom can pull a time machine out of it.

The original Multiverse was part of white space. But under ordinary circumstance it could not be located in white space. However T'Challa had an Infinity Gem and he had the DNA residual energy signatures from his ancestors in his mind, so he was able to find something of the Earth before the Incursions homing in on the DNA of his Wakanda ancestors. Thus we are shown Battleworld dissolving into white space, T'Challa grabbing a Gem and thinking about his ancestral blood, and then he's on the Earth he wanted.

Your mention of white space is informative, because it does have a mysterious function.

White space is supposed to be the region between universes, though isn't it? It may be where all universes swim inside of white space, like a swimming pool, with lots of globes thrown in there. (It reminds me of a Dulux paint technology back the 70's where Dulux dispersed a lot of bubbles throughout, to make a mat finish, because no matter how much you rub the surface, it will never go sheen, because the bubbles break and form jagged edges).

[TakoM]

Secret Wars #9 was absolutely perfect.

As a self-contained mini-series, Secret Wars is, by far, the best crossover event Marvel have ever done. It didn't need anything other than the 9 issues to tell its phenominal story. (the only spin-off I read was 'Renew your vows').

I am proud of Marvel for letting Hickman have such creative control, right from the start, and allowing him to follow his vision from Avengers #1 (heck, his first issue of Fantastic Four) through to Secret Wars #9.

Hickman's run through to Secret Wars #9 is a masterpeice and exactly what we need more of in mainstream comics.

And as an "end" to the Fantasic Four? It shows a depth of love and understanding that most writers should be in awe of (regardless of who they are writing).

It's your opinion but I couldn't disagree more. For me it was the total opposite. The only positive thing I could make out is when we interpret T'challa's move as time-traveling back so that all those things never happened. It is kinda what I wanted for the end of this run.

About TRO I could at least say until they blow up this other earth the tension was extremely high.

I know many stuff wasn't Hickman's fault Illuminati, evil Reed(Maker) were Bendis creations he took them only further but thankfully I have not to worry anymore I found a new comic universe besides Dc & Marvel

[jphamlore]

Your mention of white space is informative, because it does have a mysterious function.

White space is supposed to be the region between universes, though isn't it? It may be where all universes swim inside of white space, like a swimming pool, with lots of globes thrown in there. (It reminds me of a Dulux paint technology back the 70's where Dulux dispersed a lot of bubbles throughout, to make a mat finish, because no matter how much you rub the surface, it will never go sheen, because the bubbles break and form jagged edges).

Yes, I think it is white space because in some sense white the color is the superposition of all colors.

Doom could make a time machine from white space because he has both the will and the intellect. All he lacked was the imagination, the dreaming, of Franklin, to properly reboot the Multiverse.

[jphamlore]

It you opinion but I couldn't disagree more. For me it was the total opposite. The only positive thing I could make out is when we interpret T'challa's move as time-traveling back so that all those things never happened. It is kinda what I wanted for the end of this run.

About TRO I could at least say until they blow up this other earth the tension was extremely high.

I know many stuff wasn't Hickman's fault Illuminati, evil Reed(Maker) were Bendis creations he took them only further but thankfully I have not to worry anymore I found a new comic universe besides Dc & Marvel

The density Hickman packs into the last few pages is astonishing. The Marvel superheroes in the open era because with the Fantastic Four stealing a rocket to go into space. Now in this last Secret Wars issue, four Wakandans are on the ground watching a Wakanda launch of a rocket that will start a new era of Marvel human exploration of space.

[hobo]

Maybe I'm imagining things myself, but I detect a trend on these boards of identifying sexual assaults that don't actually happen, followed by some strange discussions.

Superior Spider-Man impersonating Peter Parker and having sex with MJ: Is Marvel going to do this? ==> It would be horrible if Marvel wrote this. ==> How dare they write this!

Jabba raping slave Leia: she was wearing a bikini, that's sexist ==> she was probably dancing for him too ==> he's raping his slave! ==> dancing is worse than murder.

Doom mind wiping Sue Storm and having sex / marrying her: Jonathan Hickman's a liar, so we'll never know the answer for sure.

I mean... the story is done. I guess it's possible he's lying. I guess it's possible he'll fess up soon. I guess it's possible he'll never confess to lying because he's some sort of twisted jerk. But there really is a better explanation.

[TakoM]

Maybe I'm imagining things myself, but I detect a trend on these boards of identifying sexual assaults that don't actually happen, followed by some strange discussions.

Superior Spider-Man impersonating Peter Parker and having sex with MJ: Is Marvel going to do this? ==> It would be horrible if Marvel wrote this. ==> How dare they write this!

Jabba raping slave Leia: she was wearing a bikini, that's sexist ==> she was probably dancing for him too ==> he's raping his slave! ==> dancing is worse than murder.

Doom mind wiping Sue Storm and having sex / marrying her: Jonathan Hickman's a liar, so we'll never know the answer for sure.

I mean... the story is done. I guess it's possible he's lying. I guess it's possible he'll fess up soon. I guess it's possible he'll never confess to lying because he's some sort of twisted jerk. But there really is a better explanation.

I'm not sure but this is what Marvel has became the take the worst fears of the no-go zone of the readers and make a story out of it. We saw that a couple of times the last few years and people said more then once they felt/feel trolled by Marvel because of this.

I think the best argue for this is this happens mostly in books with a dark theme and meant for adults and when you read such stories from Marvel it is what you get.

[BMartini]

He made a new universe with Glorian serving as Eternity. They dumped him when they found that the old universe was still kicking and chose it despite the fact that Doom still controlled it.... and then right at that moment Eternity returned and broke free of Doom's control

...This all begs the question- so Surfer and Dawn were creating Glorianverse for 8 years?! or did time in Battleworld proceed at an accelerated pace?

Yeah that was my takeaway as well...when eternity broke free they went to the new MU...so did reed and co. make the new MU and the new eternity or did they make the new MU inside the old eternity?

[JKtheMac]

As you can see, that hasn't stopped anyone. People would rather reach like Reed Richards and invent complicated explanations to support their theory rather than accept the simpler truth.

They clearly don't believe in Occam's razor.

Occam has nothing to say about narrative.
Knowing how stories are structured there are plenty of conflicting points that muddle this issue. To me this reads as a story that has gone through changes and still shows traces of earlier meanings. The signifiers are in place, not as red herrings but as subtle layered meaning. And suddenly they are wrong.

Writers don't think like that. They don't give subtle hints for misleading reasons unless they want a reveal that resolves the misdirection as well as the truth. Take Spurrior's recent X-Force run. The hints about Meme are subtle and slightly conflicting and in the reveal those conflicting hints resolve into a reveal that combines two possibilities. Imagine the reveal in that comic made a definitive choice and didn't tackle the conflicting hints. That would be unsatisfying and puzzling.

[JKtheMac]

Your mention of white space is informative, because it does have a mysterious function.

White space is supposed to be the region between universes, though isn't it? It may be where all universes swim inside of white space, like a swimming pool, with lots of globes thrown in there. (It reminds me of a Dulux paint technology back the 70's where Dulux dispersed a lot of bubbles throughout, to make a mat finish, because no matter how much you rub the surface, it will never go sheen, because the bubbles break and form jagged edges).

The white space is a comic book analogy of the transcendent. It is an established part of the Cosmic hierarchy and has been used before. It transcends creation, time and space. The Beyonders even have difficulties with the concepts of time and space, if you slog your way through Secret Wars Two (and don't unless you are very curious) it is all about how a being from that white space beyond, struggles with the concepts discovered within a universe.

The concept of transecdence often changes with world view, but as part of a meta-structure for reality it absolutely contains the potential for everything.

One of the reasons I look at Battleworld as a gnostic analogy is this idea that the denizens of Battleworld are separated from the transcendent reality by a deity inside creation. Think of the most famous gnostic story, The Matrix. In that the apparent reality also contains the creators of that reality. They are actively opposed to anybody seeking access to the transcendent reality beyond the Matrix. In gnostic thought, the figure most people think of as God is false, and subverting creation. To be a gnostic is to gain and internalise knowledge of the transcendent. That knowlege frees you from the false creation all around you. The struggle isn't to destroy the false reality or to ascend to the transcendent, it is to live with the knowlege and be connected to true meaning.

Reed is a messianic figure, he arrives from the white space with knowlege, he and his companions use the truth in various ways, to challenge the reality they find and to reveal the truth to those around them. But where it gets tricky is the end game. Reed and Doom face off as equals and swap places through one acknowledging the superiority of the other. That is not a normal gnostic ending, the Demiurge does not normally ceed control of reality. Of course a normal gnostic story would be forced to play out within Battleworld and that wouldn't be a great setting for Marvel forever (again see the ending of The Matrix trilogy). However the ending does highlight that Reed has greater access to the transcendent realm and can realise the full potential of that realm.

I guess an alternative way of looking at it is Molecule Man as demiurge of the new universes. Need to think about that one but it certainly contains some interesting ideas.

[JKtheMac]

Maybe I'm imagining things myself, but I detect a trend on these boards of identifying sexual assaults that don't actually happen, followed by some strange discussions.

Superior Spider-Man impersonating Peter Parker and having sex with MJ: Is Marvel going to do this? ==> It would be horrible if Marvel wrote this. ==> How dare they write this!

Jabba raping slave Leia: she was wearing a bikini, that's sexist ==> she was probably dancing for him too ==> he's raping his slave! ==> dancing is worse than murder.

Doom mind wiping Sue Storm and having sex / marrying her: Jonathan Hickman's a liar, so we'll never know the answer for sure.

I mean... the story is done. I guess it's possible he's lying. I guess it's possible he'll fess up soon. I guess it's possible he'll never confess to lying because he's some sort of twisted jerk. But there really is a better explanation.

Like it or not we are currently in an age where writers, editors and readers are more aware of wider implications in their stories. This isn't a new thing, see the whole Miss Marvel issue back in the day. This isn't about what the author intended, or what is or isn't in a story, it is about conciously considering what stories imply and how they can he interpreted.

This is why we are now in an era of post-feminism, post-colonialism, etc. We are in an era where the signifiers of gender and culture can be identified and shown to be nebulous and often run contrary to the intended meaning of the author. The intention of post-feminist critisism is not to attack a work for being sexist, but to identify the cultural meanings that a narrative conveys and what it tells us about the culture that creates and consumes that narrative.

Try not to see these issues as attacks on things you love, only the most clumsy and amature critic would use these tools in that manner.