Secret Wars 9 *Spoilers*

[jackolover]

I think the following, based on everything we know both within the pages of the books and what has been said from Brevoort:

The ANAD universe has a history that is almost exactly like 616 leading up to Battleworld. The final incursion happens, but instead of Battleworld, we get ANAD marvel. All the stories leading up to the Final Incursion are therefore canon to the ANAD history. That's how it's not a reboot.

The ambiguity of what T'Challa did makes it a little challenging. We know that people in ANAD marvel remember Incursions, so they are definitely part of that universe's history. And yet we don't see one on panel with TChalla. Either he ignored it or that particular one didn't happen. Or he used the reality gem and recreated Wakanda at the moment of NA#1 and grafted it onto Reed's creation of ANAD Marvel right at the point of its history where Battleworld should have occured but didn't. In that case, the ANAD history would be different in other ways besides Battleworld- namely that Wakanda is never destroyed during Infinity or overrun by the Cabal. This is in the ANAD history, mind you. We know that all those things still occured in the history of the 616 universe.

I have trouble conceiving of the denizens of ANAD going through everything (including the final Incursion leading up to Secret Wars), and existing knowing this after miraculously being restored from death after 8 years in purgatory, if such a place exists to store people. I think their minds would be blown, but, it could be like Alice in Wonderland, and they just click the red shoes, and they are back in Kansas, and wake up after a dream.

From the Brevoort quote you supply, people go through the grinding destruction of an Incursion. (Now here's the interesting part. Doom isn't there to pluck them aside and put them in Battleworld, and two rafts do not carry Illuminati and Cabal into hidden places). Instead, Reed /God is there, and he miraculously restores the universe as ANAD, and Multiverse. That's the sequence as put down by Brevoort. (It's a little like Age of Ultron and Logan's last alteration of Pym). It's sort of like let's ignore Secret Wars, and just go along like after Age of Ultron didn't happen either. Only after Age of Ultron, Angela and Galactus were in different places, and after Secret Wars, they are in a whole new 8th reality, and Reed is God. There have been shifts in both AoU and SW cases, but the line of continuity hasn't been interrupted all that much.

[Biclopcicle]

I have trouble conceiving of the denizens of ANAD going through everything (including the final Incursion leading up to Secret Wars), and existing knowing this after miraculously being restored from death after 8 years in purgatory, if such a place exists to store people. I think their minds would be blown, but, it could be like Alice in Wonderland, and they just click the red shoes, and they are back in Kansas, and wake up after a dream.

I think Reed restored everything at the point of the final incursion- so only a very few would remember Battleworld itself. and 616 has had all types of craziness happen to it, that the general public was aware of. Just look at Infinity. So I don't think its that far fetched

[1drman]

Also, thank you Ribic for detailing Valeria's butt in the final pages. That was soooooooo needed. *Gag noise*

I have to step in here. Normally i agree on things like this. I skipped a whole run of a book i liked because the first issue had a closeup of a 16 year old character's butt in the first issue.

But when Ribic does it, I don't criticize him because he's consistent across age and gender. Valeria was wearing the same material as Susan, so it makes sense. And if you havent noticed, take a look at the dudes. Sometimes when I read his stuff I have to double take. I wish god had drawn me the way he draws male super heroes. Captain Britain in the second issue is a good example. I'm surprised more girls don't read his stuff.

[jackolover]

I think Reed restored everything at the point of the final incursion- so only a very few would remember Battleworld itself. and 616 has had all types of craziness happen to it, that the general public was aware of. Just look at Infinity. So I don't think its that far fetched

Pretty resilient people in the MU?

[neohuey89]

I guess that's where we are disagreeing. I don't think they were transported- i think everyone was recreated. If they were transported, then they should remember Battleworld too. No one remembers battleworld, but they do remember the incursions.

Unless you're saying that they were transported from the point of the final Incursion to ANAD marvel. In that case, the incursions still must have happened. ANAD universe has a past- it didn't just start at Reed's creation as time zero. When a universe is created, a whole timeline comes along with it, even though it's "starting" in the middle of things. Whatever people remember is the past of their native universe- if reality got altered such that the past did not include incursions, then they could not remember them. This could probably be explained better...anyway, in most fictions that I've encountered where the timeline is altered, no one can remember the old timeline. There's an episode of Star Trek:TNG where there's a recurring time loop and history keeps getting altered slightly each time. No one can remember the old timelines (outside a very vague sense of deja vu) but they pick up on a signal that passes through the iterations of the time loop and they signal themselves to change things so that they break free of the time loop.

Anyway, my point is that, if there's an alternate history, you shouldn't be able to remember the old, original history

ANAD didn't start at time zero the same way none of the battleworld domains started at time 0. Everyone knows the world was destroyed and then the world was restored (and according to Breevort's formspring the majority of heroes think that Reed sacrificed himself). The point in time that the world was restored was at NA#1. Noone forgot what happened during TRO and before, they just get to live their lives without suffering the direct aftermath of it (with the exception of Namor and those transplated from foreign universes).

[1drman]

In my opinion it wasn't so much a reboot as it was a really elaborate solution to the problem that the ultimate u had run it's course but a few characters: the maker, miles, miles' supporting cast(and hopefully a few others) are still relevant and too unique for them to be replicated by modifying 616 characters a la Sam Fury.

[1drman]

I think Reed restored everything at the point of the final incursion- so only a very few would remember Battleworld itself. and 616 has had all types of craziness happen to it, that the general public was aware of. Just look at Infinity. So I don't think its that far fetched

Yeah.. From what i read aside from secret wars itself, most significantly ms marvel, i would say the incursions happened. During the last incursion everyone thought the world was about to end and gathered at the highschool. Kamala went up to the roof after Bruno where they professed their love before everything goes white. In the next issue, ms marvel #1, she talks about what was said up on the roof that day.

[JKtheMac]

It sounds like Panther going back to that moment in NA #1 is wishful thinking (with an Infinity Gauntlet), to have a positive experience, instead of the nightmare that really happened instead. I have difficulty rationalising why Panther did that. Maybe to experience a daydream where this happened another, happy, conclusion to the tribal trial of the young?

The way I see it, it has fundamental story reasons. The story of NA was all about his bad decision to call in the Illuminati and how that led to both personal tragedy and a tragedy that swept up most of the heroes and destroyed Wakanda. The ending with T'Challa returning to the end of the ritual where it all started is a affirmation to him that this is the moment where he can make another choice.

He was given the title of King of the Dead, and the implication back then was he would travel past the doors of the underworld for his people with Reed. The Egyptian reference here would be the Phaoroh's journey through the underworld which in many ways recreates the universe each day. It was effectively foretold that T'Challa's time in the Underworld would bring back his people.

However none of that requires time travel and if it was time travel it probably would be mentioned in Ultimates 3 where they are discussing the repercussions of such travel. Instead saving his people implies bringing them back: an insertion of Wakanda into the new 'prime universe'.

If it was a simple time jump T'Challa wouldn't be surprised it worked and he wouldn't be able to significantly alter the progress of the incursions just by time jumping, so the fact we don't see the first incursion suggests this isn't the past.

[JKtheMac]

It is possible all anybody retains of their previous 616, Incursion, history is memory of it, and that ANAD has a new history that didn't include the incursions anymore? They remember it like a dream. There is indication from Marvel that everything still happened in the 616, but, Marvel still contend this ANAD is not a reboot. If it is a whole other reality, manufactured to the best fit, why isn't ANAD a reboot? Reed is God. He just made the Universe. Hmmm. Sounds different to the 616 to me.

It's possible the ANAD is the same as the 616, if Reed/Owen/Franklin is analogous to Stan Lee /Jack Kirby/Steve Ditko.

Ultimates provides categoric and cast iron proof that this is a new iteration of the universe, and suggests this is the eighth and most stable iteration. The underlying nature of reality is different. It also implies this evolution of the universe is an emergent phenomenon. That such reboot events are destined to occur. Different universe.

Marvel are engaged in a marketing plan. Reboot the universe but don't make too big a deal about it. Much like the new Star Trek movies, we get a soft reboot as far as characters are concerned, but as far as the reality of physics this is a reboot in a "turn it off and turn it on again" manner. Where Reed et al are effectively using the final state of the universe as a save point or reference. This is easy enough because they are outside of time and space. The multiverse collapses and is rebuilt and in a diagram there is a pinch point with Doom and Reed in that pinch, saving and recreating the multiverse.

People get hung up on the word reboot. It implies a brand new discontinuous world. Here with have continuity of character but discontinuity of reality. It is easier to call that 'not a reboot' than explain.

[JKtheMac]

the part I disagree with is that there's an alternate history with the incursions. To me it's like if everyone see what happened, but then everyone jumped into a time machine before it happened and we have an alternate reality of what took place. Similar to what happened in Age of X. The incursions didn't happen in ANAD, they happened in 616, but since most of the characters are transferred from 616 they remember those things happening.

We have zero proof of this, and writers try to avoid resets because they were overused in previous decades. We would rightly accuse Hickman of a lazy reset. Besides a reset wouldn't achieve anything.

Yeah.. From what i read aside from secret wars itself, most significantly ms marvel, i would say the incursions happened. During the last incursion everyone thought the world was about to end and gathered at the highschool. Kamala went up to the roof after Bruno where they professed their love before everything goes white. In the next issue, ms marvel #1, she talks about what was said up on the roof that day.

Exactly. We have characters like Ms. Marvel literally remembering the last day of the old reality and the time after. Nothing about remembering two versions of history. Silver Surfer has nothing about time jumps either. Squadron Supreme has characters from Battlewolrd, and Rogers confronting Hyperion based on what happened after NA#1.

[Johnny Peril]

I think the following, based on everything we know both within the pages of the books and what has been said from Brevoort:

The ANAD universe has a history that is almost exactly like 616 leading up to Battleworld. The final incursion happens, but instead of Battleworld, we get ANAD marvel. All the stories leading up to the Final Incursion are therefore canon to the ANAD history. That's how it's not a reboot.

The ambiguity of what T'Challa did makes it a little challenging. We know that people in ANAD marvel remember Incursions, so they are definitely part of that universe's history. And yet we don't see one on panel with TChalla. Either he ignored it or that particular one didn't happen. Or he used the reality gem and recreated Wakanda at the moment of NA#1 and grafted it onto Reed's creation of ANAD Marvel right at the point of its history where Battleworld should have occured but didn't. In that case, the ANAD history would be different in other ways besides Battleworld- namely that Wakanda is never destroyed during Infinity or overrun by the Cabal. This is in the ANAD history, mind you. We know that all those things still occured in the history of the 616 universe.

I'd very much like to know what else the ANAD population remembers up to the final Incursion such as the U.N. allowing the Cabal to operate, the Illuminati being fugitives, half the galaxy attacking Earth(do alien races remember this?), or anti-matter bombs that were built by their heroes. Most important, what do they remember about Wakanda which was the desolated country sacrificed to the Cabal yet now has the world's number one space program?

[JKtheMac]

As a classic example of how editorial comments totally fail to resolve things we now have this:

Anon:
Hi Tom, I enjoyed Hickman’s whole Avengers run and the main Secret Wars series very much. One question remained for me: does Black Panther’s appearance back in the events of New Avengers #1 (minus the incursion) at the end of Secret Wars mean the incursions and all of Hickman’s run were erased? That doesn’t seem to be what’s been implied in other titles.

Brevoort: Nope, it doesn’t mean that at all.

Now while I would read this as no time shenanigans I am sure some would spot the loopholes in that unintentionally ambiguous reply.

[JKtheMac]

I'd very much like to know what else the ANAD population remembers up to the final Incursion such as the U.N. allowing the Cabal to operate, the Illuminati being fugitives, half the galaxy attacking Earth(do alien races remember this?), or anti-matter bombs that were built by their heroes. Most important, what do they remember about Wakanda which was the desolated country sacrificed to the Cabal yet now has the world's number one space program?

Squadron Supreme certainly seems to allude to the whole U.N. thing at least from memory.
<edit: it doesn't, except of course Rogers is still with Shield which was all related>

In the very earliest ANAD books I seem to remember some characters being fuzzy over details but that is less of a thing now. The established continuity from an ANAD perspective seems to be the world was saved from the last incursion by Reed, who sacrificed his life to save the universe.

Wakanda is probably remembered as being destroyed and then miraculously brought back.

[BlitzMah]

Squadron Supreme certainly seems to allude to the whole U.N. thing at least from memory.
<edit: it doesn't, except of course Rogers is still with Shield which was all related>

In the very earliest ANAD books I seem to remember some characters being fuzzy over details but that is less of a thing now. The established continuity from an ANAD perspective seems to be the world was saved from the last incursion by Reed, who sacrificed his life to save the universe.

Wakanda is probably remembered as being destroyed and then miraculously brought back.

Yes, indeed!

[neohuey89]

We have zero proof of this, and writers try to avoid resets because they were overused in previous decades. We would rightly accuse Hickman of a lazy reset. Besides a reset wouldn't achieve anything.



Exactly. We have characters like Ms. Marvel literally remembering the last day of the old reality and the time after. Nothing about remembering two versions of history. Silver Surfer has nothing about time jumps either. Squadron Supreme has characters from Battlewolrd, and Rogers confronting Hyperion based on what happened after NA#1.

So how is there zero proof of this when we watched BP go back to NA #1? The incursions didn't happen yet everyone remembers what happened before? It couldn't have been business as usual
because the final incursion wasn't 8 months after the first incursion (which didn't happen in ANAD). It was 8 months after the great society was destroyed.

Even if that was the case why would BP take initiative to fix the multiverse, but conveniently dodge the entire TRO issue when he was the only one to see it all the way through from beginning to end. When Battleworld ended the entire Great Destroyer saga from ended. There was no repeats, no alternate redo of accounts, everything moved on from the NA #1 point. Everyone remembers what happened because it did happen, in 616. Not in ANAD not only is this a new universe, but it's not even the same creation cycle. 616 was in the 7th and ANAD is in the 8th.