Secret Wars 9 *Spoilers*

[Biclopcicle]

I think you're looking too hard into this. There are no incursions anymore. that's been resolved.

Actually there are still incursions- they've been mentioned several times in ANAD books

And they have to have happened, because there are remnants of Battleworld still in existence- the Battlerealm

[The Whovian]

can we honestly say that besides maybe TOAA

Current Owen is the most powerful marvel character ever, he is a comibination of every molecule man that ever existed plus he has the powers of the Beyonders now

He is THE most powerful comic book character ever

[neohuey89]

Actually there are still incursions- they've been mentioned several times in ANAD books

And they have to have happened, because there are remnants of Battleworld still in existence- the Battlerealm

which books still have incursions occurring?

everything that happened happened, but a lot of things have been restored from that point.

[Biclopcicle]

which books still have incursions occurring?

everything that happened happened, but a lot of things have been restored from that point.

ok I thought you meant the incursions were erased from the past.

I'm saying that it's not clear what T'challa did- he either went backwards in time or he recreated Wakanda along with the recreation of the Marvel Universe. If he went backwards in time, then he could have died subsequently, and then it's possible he would no longer be a survivor of the old 616 universe

[Random4]

He is THE most powerful comic book character ever

yeah i agree...he surpasses Pre-Retcon Beyonder and Pre Retcon Owen

[jackolover]

Didn't Owen make a point in the original SW that he didn't need to eat or shower (but still needed to rest)? Anyways, as you say, a nod to his humanity.

I'll bow to your knowledge it was mentioned before he does need to eat. I think I heard something like that too.

[neohuey89]

ok I thought you meant the incursions were erased from the past.

I'm saying that it's not clear what T'challa did- he either went backwards in time or he recreated Wakanda along with the recreation of the Marvel Universe. If he went backwards in time, then he could have died subsequently, and then it's possible he would no longer be a survivor of the old 616 universe

even still when BP goes back to NA #1 the incursions situation no longer exists. There is no hypothetical situation. We know this because the incursion doesn't happen the kids are still alive, etc. At that point in time it's all over. What happened happened, but it's not a repeat. They're not even in 616 anymore.

[jackolover]

Just read this today and didn't like it one bit.
I guess it's all great if you're an FF fan (or Black Panther for that matter), but I loath them and this whole ending was just one big prop up for all of them. The idea of Reed and Franklin Richards being supreme gods of the new MU irritates me to no end.
Meanwhile we get Namor getting jobbed yet again (because SS 1 wasn't bad enough), but hey it's not like they pretty much did the exact same thing with Cyclops earlier in SW. I guess Marvel really hates these two characters now.
No conclusion for any of the remnant realities (but they couldn't even bother to make the minis tie into the main series properly anyway), no indication whatsoever about what happened to the people from the Ultimate Universe except for Miles (I guess they're all dead and gone),...
After how long the whole Secret Wars thing took, this was just a huge disappointment.

I'm not disappointed yet on the conclusion of SW #9, (still waiting on the fallout, if any), but I do share your reservations about Reed, Owen and Franklin being the creators of ANAD now. I suspect something goes wrong, somehow, like not trusting humans to correctly replicate what has gone before. They may romanticise it too much, like Dawn in Silver Surfer. But we'll see. Heroes Reborn was a Franklin Richards reimagining of the MU, and it seemed to have a filled Earth, with well rounded characters and normal citizens.

Does anybody have a critique of Heroes Reborn that may shed some light onto what failings ANAD will have?

[jackolover]

why does it irritate you

reed's brain was already used to recreate the multiverse in the past series

and he is the smartest man in the world he has the ability to create ideas


franklin is like the most powerful character in the MU the guy has been creating pocket universes when he was 5

it makes logical sense..its not like iron man and captain america are doing it

It's a really difficult process to sit down and concentrate on all the details of everybody you pick to have in your universe and where they live. I'd just like to know the mechanics of it, because just snapping your fingers leaves a lot of detail very loose.

[Random4]

It's a really difficult process to sit down and concentrate on all the details of everybody you pick to have in your universe and where they live. I'd just like to know the mechanics of it, because just snapping your fingers leaves a lot of detail very loose.

well currently Owen/Molecule Man is arguably the most powerful character in Marvel History

he has infinite versions of himself, all their powers combined, he also has all the powers of The Beyonders

essentially the mechanics work like this:


Franklin is the "Universal Dreamer" described by Valeria, he comes up with all the ideas creating a sort of bubble "pocket" universe

he then gives it to Reed, who using Owen's powers Structures it and puts it all into place

meanwhile Owen is shedding a part of himself to be the anchor of that universe

while the rest of the Future Foundation, Valeria, Sue etc. are simply writing everything down and cataloguing it

[Biclopcicle]

even still when BP goes back to NA #1 the incursions situation no longer exists. There is no hypothetical situation. We know this because the incursion doesn't happen the kids are still alive, etc. At that point in time it's all over. What happened happened, but it's not a repeat. They're not even in 616 anymore.

I think that's definitely a strong possibility, but it could also be that he went back in time and altered 616 to some degree to lay some groundwork for the new universe that Reed would eventually create- improve the template if you will. If it's the time gem, then he did go backwards in time. If it's the reality gem, then he just recreated Wakanda in the present. I think the Reality gem scenario is the more parsimonious explanation, but it's not clear what actually happened (mainly because we don't know what gem he used)

[Biclopcicle]

well currently Owen/Molecule Man is arguably the most powerful character in Marvel History

he has infinite versions of himself, all their powers combined, he also has all the powers of The Beyonders

essentially the mechanics work like this:


Franklin is the "Universal Dreamer" described by Valeria, he comes up with all the ideas creating a sort of bubble "pocket" universe

he then gives it to Reed, who using Owen's powers Structures it and puts it all into place

meanwhile Owen is shedding a part of himself to be the anchor of that universe

while the rest of the Future Foundation, Valeria, Sue etc. are simply writing everything down and cataloguing it

The way I see it is that the universe and everything in it is like a computer program, with billions of lines of code. Even though the universe gets destroyed, there is some repository where the code is kept ("in the cloud"). Even if spacetime is destroyed in the multiversal anihilation, there is clearly some type of framework- otherwise there wouldn't be whitespace- there would simply be nothing at all. The "coding" of the spacetime history of the universe is stored, and when a reality warper comes along (be it one who possesses the Infinity Gauntlet or Franklin or whoever), they go in and "edit" some of the code. This doesn't require full knowledge of the code itself, only of the parts they wish to change. In the current situation, Franklin and Reed are trying to recreate the 616 universe. They don't have to know the spacetime history of every nook and cranny of that universe- they just have to know that is the universe they want to recreate. Whether Franklin, Reed, and Molecule man chose to intertwine Weirdworld, Maker, Old Man Logan, etc or somehow the code got "corrupted" in the Battleworld event, I don't know. But I think this analogy serves as a reasonable way to consider what's going on right now, cosmically, in the Marvel Multiverse

[penthotal]

even still when BP goes back to NA #1 the incursions situation no longer exists. There is no hypothetical situation. We know this because the incursion doesn't happen the kids are still alive, etc. At that point in time it's all over. What happened happened, but it's not a repeat. They're not even in 616 anymore.

I think, already knowing incursions will happen, he choose to ignore in order to save the boys' life and point them to the spaceship instead of following the micro tremors they perceive, because he knows that doing that they will find black swan, the boys will be killed and so on.

[jackolover]

I know, but if he went back in time, he could have chosen not to re-form the Illuminati. Then perhaps the life raft would never have been created and then he would die in the Final Incursion ( in the second iteration of a time loop that I'm proposing)

Edit: now that I think of it, we know that the Illuminati are remembered for being involved in the Incursions (as discussed in the Ultimates, possible issue #1)-so that did not change. So whether he went back in time or recreated Wakanda pre-Incursion and added that to Reed and Franklin's new universe, in all likelihood T'Challa survived, even in a second iteration of events. We don't know for certain, but if he continues to demonstrate memories of the incursions and Battleworld, then I think that will clench it
'

Just from everyone's memories of the Incursions happening, and Reed Richards remembered as being the reason ANAD exists, we have to conclude everything happened as it did. All Avengers, Time Runs Out, and Secret Wars.

That Black Panther had that flashback to New Avengers #1 could just be because he didn't want the 3 young people to die in that issue the first time around. If Hickman was always going to revisit New Avengers #1 again at the end of Secret Wars #9, then Hickman must have had some reason to make that sequence heavy in relevance to his story, especially the emphasis T'Challa puts on the youth being the future of Wakanda. Hickman may have felt the young people's death was premature and a very negative symbol in this story, so Hickman chose to use that symbolism and turn it into an exhilarating optimism in the end. But I don't know whether Hickman or Black Panther can do that. Its revisiting the past and making things right, when disaster has already robbed potential in people by Incursions.

This comes down to Hickmans overall message here, that Incursions can't rob you of potential, when he displays Reed/Owen/Franklin recreating an Earth again from nothing but Manhattan, the section that survived the Incursion. All of ANAD is replacing that potential people had all over the planet, that otherwise were killed in the Incursion. Take a look at Squadron Supreme, and Uncanny Avengers and you take a nostalgic walk past all the places in America and around the world that make up ANAD Earth, all that stopped existing and the creators had to restructure again from scratch. If the creators could achieve that, who knows if Hickman and Panther could get T'Challas young people to live again and have the potential Panther commented upon, in SW #9? I thought that sequence was very important to the message of SW #9.

[Random4]

The way I see it is that the universe and everything in it is like a computer program, with billions of lines of code. Even though the universe gets destroyed, there is some repository where the code is kept ("in the cloud"). Even if spacetime is destroyed in the multiversal anihilation, there is clearly some type of framework- otherwise there wouldn't be whitespace- there would simply be nothing at all. The "coding" of the spacetime history of the universe is stored, and when a reality warper comes along (be it one who possesses the Infinity Gauntlet or Franklin or whoever), they go in and "edit" some of the code. This doesn't require full knowledge of the code itself, only of the parts they wish to change. In the current situation, Franklin and Reed are trying to recreate the 616 universe. They don't have to know the spacetime history of every nook and cranny of that universe- they just have to know that is the universe they want to recreate. Whether Franklin, Reed, and Molecule man chose to intertwine Weirdworld, Maker, Old Man Logan, etc or somehow the code got "corrupted" in the Battleworld event, I don't know. But I think this analogy serves as a reasonable way to consider what's going on right now, cosmically, in the Marvel Multiverse

true, but reading through #9 again it mentions that Franklin is already playing loosely with the underlying physics of the universes, i.e superstructures.. so i wonder if they are essentially " recreating a new universe with a different set of peramiters"