Secret Wars 9 *Spoilers*

[Orbus]

Clearly the incursions did happen. There's been far too many references to them in various All New, All Different books to conclude it didn't. The general public even know of them happening this Time Runs Out and Secret Wars #1 still likely occurred.

I'd take Wakanda being restored as it was in New Avengers #1 as everything else that's been reworked by Secret Wars. Old Man Logan, The Maker etc all land in 616 and so on, I don't think this is any different. It was mentioned early in Secret Wars a portion of Wakanda survived on Battle World and we saw T'Challa react to that. I'm guessing the Wakanda we see here is that one, one that never went through all the incursion stuff and has landed in the new regular Marvel Universe.

[vitruvian]

not only is it officially a reboot despite all the "this is not a reboot" marketing from the publisher, but the ff got a shameful ending.

that last scene with them should be the prologue to a brand new book that by all rights can outsell everything else marvel are putting out. too bad they have stopped believing in their own product.

Being the creators or at least demiurges of the new omniverse is shameful? How, exactly?

And it's left completely open for Reed, Sue, and the rest of the Foundation to come back eventually. Presumably once they're done with the creation and cartography job, they can use the last smidgen of Owen's power to send themselves back to their own Earth, no longer effectively deified by channeling it.

[vitruvian]

Clearly the incursions did happen. There's been far too many references to them in various All New, All Different books to conclude it didn't. The general public even know of them happening this Time Runs Out and Secret Wars #1 still likely occurred.

I'd take Wakanda being restored as it was in New Avengers #1 as everything else that's been reworked by Secret Wars. Old Man Logan, The Maker etc all land in 616 and so on, I don't think this is any different. It was mentioned early in Secret Wars a portion of Wakanda survived on Battle World and we saw T'Challa react to that. I'm guessing the Wakanda we see here is that one, one that never went through all the incursion stuff and has landed in the new regular Marvel Universe.

So, they recall a different history than the rest of the Earth on which they exist? One without Incursions, while everybody else (which is everybody, remember the UN announcement) remembers the Incursions? That seems problematic.

[vitruvian]

The incursions did happen in the old universe, but Reed recreated the multiverse AFTER Doom dealt with the Beyonders (in the past).

Honestly, it's really confusing so the best I can explain it is T'challa is in the 1985 at the end of Back to the Future 2. All that stuff happened in another timeline/universe but he helped avert it and only a few other people know that this Earth isn't quite "right", but it's better.

Right, but that would still mean that the Namor of this new version of Earth didn't do what the Squadron killed him for, since he didn't go back in time with T'Challa and is therefore not a survivor of the old universe and Battleworld.

[vitruvian]

So the Sue, Franklin and Valeria at the end are Reed's re-creation of his 616 family through Owen and the Doom-created Sue, Franklin and Valeria are gone.

No, it doesn't indicate that's the case anywhere. It could just as well be that them being saved initially was down to Reed and Owen reaching back through time, rather than Doom actively intervening to save them at the same time he was piecing together Battleworld.

[Derek Metaltron]

What's still underwhelming about the ending to what has otherwise been a great event is how the destruction of Battleworld and all those numerous people and realities is just a side note, because ultimately only Reed, Doom, Black Panther and Miles matter. I also laugh at people who consider this a reboot because outside Miles and a tiny handful of characters like Old Man Logan and Maker, Doom's face, Wakanda in space and the FF becoming gods, the 616 Marvel Universe is still exactly the same, any other changes are in those eight months post Battleworld. Not that it not being a reboot is a bad thing, because nobody wants one.

Spare a thought for all those great alternative takes on characters we'll probably never see again though - Gladiator Steve Rogers, Chrissie Pryde, the Parkers of the Regency, Technopolis, the War Zone, the Avengers of the West save Red Wolf and the rest.

[vitruvian]

That's the thing though, Namor does* remember. He even says outright in SS#1, something about Spectrum's world being doomed and him just helping it along.

Maybe all those on the life-raft remember? I took that shot of Miles standing looking out over the city as a sign of him remembering.

*or rather, he did. R.I.P.

That may be it... only those who survived destroyed and not recreated universes, whether on the life rafts or being specifically saved individually for Battleworld like Sue and Valeria, actually remember everything themselves... even if they appeared to die on Battleworld or in between universes (like Hyperion did fighting the Beyonders). Everybody else, like Blue Marvel, has to figure it out from the structure of the universe changing, vague memories that there was some sort of crisis, etc.

[vitruvian]

What's still underwhelming about the ending to what has otherwise been a great event is how the destruction of Battleworld and all those numerous people and realities is just a side note, because ultimately only Reed, Doom, Black Panther and Miles matter.

Except it's not simple destruction and death, is it? First of all, although it is not explicitly called out as part of the process in the epilogue, Reed mentions using the pieces Doom saved as seeds, so some of the domains are likely being used in that capacity, which would preserve them and their populations. We also know from Contest of Champions that Battleworld is not totally destroyed or depopulated, even in the end.

Spare a thought for all those great alternative takes on characters we'll probably never see again though - Gladiator Steve Rogers, Chrissie Pryde, the Parkers of the Regency, Technopolis, the War Zone, the Avengers of the West save Red Wolf and the rest.

Except no.. any or all of these may now still exist in Reed and co's new omniverse. In fact, with Red Wolf, we know for a fact that his whole setting does exist as its own world in the new omniverse, at least long enough for him to cross over to ANAD Marvel Earth.

[JKtheMac]

I don't think anyone went back in time. What T'challa seems to suceed in doing is pull the past version of Wakanda into the present. He was destined to save them all, he was named King of the Dead, because he needed to bring them back. He seems to be in a very similar position story wise to his first ANAD appearance.

[vitruvian]

sad truth, but if the FF are restoring the multiverse, doesn't that mean that they would also restore the Ultimate universe?

Not necessarily. They're not recreating and restoring everything just as it was, they're building a new omniverse. And we know from Squadron Supreme and Web Warriors and so on that there are some universes that remain dead and gone.

[XPac]

Right, but that would still mean that the Namor of this new version of Earth didn't do what the Squadron killed him for, since he didn't go back in time with T'Challa and is therefore not a survivor of the old universe and Battleworld.

I was wondering about that too.

That would mean the Namor that was guitly of destroying Spectrums world was killed by Doom (or at least I think Doom killed him) on Battle World and the Namor the Squadron killed is innocent of anything that occured in New Avengers or Time Runs Out.

If that's how it works. Time travel confuses the heck out of me.

[KOSLOX]

So did Namor actually die when Doom blasted him? If not that could explain why he remembers. It's too bad he was basically wasted in this mini and then served up to the SS without a strong showing for his last major event.

[Derek Metaltron]

Well as long as Marvel is committed to making an established Multiverse and give enough focus on it including some of those realities established in SW and not just for canon fodder in COC or WW, I'll be happy.

[JKtheMac]

Overall I think Hickman's biggest inspiration is God Emporer Dune. Split Leto II into two caracters, with Doom being Leto II right up to that book's climax but make Reed the out working of the golden path, and you have an analogous story. I agree this technically makes the Richards family the creator pantheon of the new multiverse but we should at least credit Doom for getting us to that point.

[vitruvian]

I was wondering about that too.

That would mean the Namor that was guitly of destroying Spectrums world was killed by Doom (or at least I think Doom killed him) on Battle World and the Namor the Squadron killed is innocent of anything that occured in New Avengers or Time Runs Out.

If that's how it works. Time travel confuses the heck out of me.

Yes, except as pointed out by another poster, in Squadron Supreme Namor certainly remembered doing it and argued that it was justified. I guess we have to conclude that anybody who survived the Incursions, whether with Doom (so Doom, Reece, Strange) or on the life rafts (the Illuminati, Foundation, Cabal, others) remembers it all, even if they got killed in the interim Battleworld universe. Also those, like the Squadron, who are anomalous survivors of dead universes.