Azrael and Cassandra Cain's place on the dc universe

[Aioros22]

I'm basically talking about having the cake and eating it too win-win

Yes, we can tell

Between that, Grayson`s butt and beer arguments I have a field day just Reading throught.

[Aahz]

1) Her training changed her period! It kinda changed her body, it amped her reactions, her pain-tolerance, etc, even tho it's not exactly stated word by word, its pretty well shown. she dodges bullets which was something that she was trained to do (it was shown) and her punching power is directly correlated with her speed like of how fast she moves.

But that training doesn't allow you to do something like this, bullet time and punching through concrete it way above peak human levels, and even if it looks cool it doesn't fit in the batman franchise.

Cass looking better in fights than other popular characters isn't strange, its the way its supposed to be, if they aren't as capable as she is, then they shouldn't be portrayed as such, its as simple as that.

It may not be strange if you define her skill level that high, but having one character outshine every body else is story wise (and if you want to sell comics) imo a bad idea. If the other characters are have the role of the "smart guy" (like Oracle), is kind of a "comic relief" char (Steph) or a kid (Damian) it might be OK, not if they are usually also mostly action guys (Dick, Jason).

[bat_girl_cc]

But that training doesn't allow you to do something like this, bullet time and punching through concrete it way above peak human levels, and even if it looks cool it doesn't fit in the batman franchise.

It may not be strange if you define her skill level that high, but having one character outshine every body else is story wise (and if you want to sell comics) imo a bad idea. If the other characters are have the role of the "smart guy" (like Oracle), is kind of a "comic relief" char (Steph) or a kid (Damian) it might be OK, not if they are usually also mostly action guys (Dick, Jason).

All reasons why Cass should be appart of say Teen Titans, and guest star on other bat-family books from time to time, where i guess she could job a little for the sake of the story...overall it would be win-win.

[JazzyJeffie]

Was there ever a New 52 Origin story for Azrael?

[Dzetoun]

Was there ever a New 52 Origin story for Azrael?

Going on now, more or less, in Batman and Robin Eternal. Last issue spoke about it, in fact.

[The Cool Thatguy]

But that training doesn't allow you to do something like this, bullet time and punching through concrete it way above peak human levels, and even if it looks cool it doesn't fit in the batman franchise..

But a guy in a bunny armor with rocket launcher shoulders calling himself Batman is?

Cass fit in fine when Batman was noir, street level focused. She works even better when the wider DCU is allowed into the Bat-verse

[heyevaxx]

1) First, there's no such thing as a real-life-like-reallity, in comics...

True but the boundaries and consistency of the rules of a fantasy environment are key to making it believable. Since you and I know all of Cass' stories very well, we see a consistency (at least up to OYL) and believe in the world she lives in. The feats she preforms make sense based on her pre-OYL corpus.

But other comics fans, maybe some who aren't as familiar with old Cass or not fans of hers, might not see her feats as consistent or sensible. Even in the comic world setting. And that's the key: fiction, especially in highly fantastical worlds, is exceedingly subjective. Put another way, different strokes for different folks. Cass may not fit in some reader's comic realities for whatever reason. And it's not an objective argument, i.e. there's no finally getting someone to believe the "right" way about what makes sense in comics.

3 reality examples:

1) Cass outrunning a bullet. There's a Batgirl where Cass comes out a safe room vault and confronts a large group of criminals (like 20) who were about to enter. A guy about 10-12 feet from Cass fires a handgun at her head and in the next frame she's closed the 10-12 distance and is about to hit him. The trick is: the 2nd frame shows the bullet at about the spot where Cass started. Thus, she moved about bullet speed which is not possible for a non-meta, non-alien, non-robot, non-magic, non-miracle-drugged person.

I repeat: not possible. But Cass fans may shrug their shoulders and say "meh, she did it cause she's awesome!" But some Cass fans (like me!), people who don't read Cass, and active Cass dislikers say "this is another example of PIS, wrongly pumping a character to meta levels when they're claiming she's just human."

2) Dick one shotting Midnighter. While holding a baby. I don't follow Grayson but from what I know about both toons, this is nuts. I also recall Batman knocking out the Flash from years ago. So these things don't make sense to me but they're not really big deals since I'm not that invested in those toons or those particular stories.

3) The new Batgirl art team is way too cartoony for me. I read a page and I can barely take in the dialog because the art communicates a tone and a feeling that completely contradicts the kind of comics I'm used to. So I don't read Batgirl which is too bad since I'm a Babs fan. But that's me. I know the current Batgirl title has loads of fans since it's sales are decent (a lot better than Catwoman! my fave).

So comics' reality in fungable and a function of the reader. If the fantasy world is *too* outlandish and inconsistent, then almost no readers will feel comfortable with the stories set in it. But boundaries, even though it's the comics, are required for most readers to like the setting.

2) People often complain that thei're favourite characters (Nightwing, Robin, Batgirl, etc) look bad when they are in stories with these characters, and even tho these people are obviosuly biased, they are not totally wrong!

Well, every fan (which is short for "fanatic") is going to be biased. You and I are "obviously biased" for Cassandra Cain. I think bias in western cultures has become a euphemism for an incorrect or irrational opinion based on unreasonable feelings. What rubbish! We are biased on almost everything we think about. And especially about fiction.

So I think it's not reasonable to argue fan of toon X is "totally wrong" when they complain about getting stomped by toon Y. It's their opinion and may not jive with mine but "totally wrong" should really be reserved for 1+1=3, pure mathematics with no units (i.e. no lbs, meters, euros, etc).

The case in point here, is that as long as Az and Cass, get treated as your every-day-street-leveler, they will never be all that they can be, there will always be people complaining..."they can't do this"..."they can't do that"..."they can't go over that certain limit"...

Ok, first off, are we talking old pre52 or New52? Because while the new characters are of course familiar because of their old versions, they are *new* and different. In particular, new Azrael is very different from the old, unlike new Cass who is pretty similar in her abilities (though slightly detuned fighting) and background.

I was surprised and very disappointed that Tim had such an easy fight with new Az. Old Tim was above Steph in fighting IMO but he wasn't great. New Tim seems to be a great fighter! And he seems irritable, angry, and unlikable. My only exposure to new Tim is BRE so maybe he's written differently elsewhere.

But new Az, oh it's so sad. I'd hoped a really hard fight requiring both Tim and Jason would occur without Az even being clearly defeated. Not so, not so. Old Az was a really good fighter with his mask on while here he's mostly flash, i.e. he looks cool. Also, the new Az story is very different: there's no discovery left for him, no unlocking how or why he's Az. That was his whole quest in the old days. Now, he knows what he is, wants to be it, and just got his butt handed to him by the world's second greatest detective. Bah!

So, to your point, I don't know why anyone would complain about *new* Az being too powerful or able to do this or that. New Az was soundly defeated by a Batman protégé. Seeing Az immobilized by Tim and his shouting "I am Azrael!..." was so depressing.

For new Cass, that's a different argument since new Cass actually has been shown to be extremely capable. And not just fighting since she somehow did something(s) to get the ARGUS jet to overfly Mother's nursery. But new Cass fighting ability and their fit in the New52 Batfam has been a discussion beaten to death. Though I'll go there again if anyone wants to!

My solution? have these characters appear in titles like "Justice League United" or "Teen Titans" where people won't complain that they perform the feats that they use too, and that they should do...

This is a great idea! Except...

1) I think new Az may be just appearing in BRE to only be set aside for very rare later appearances. I just don't see his path forward, I don't know what his motivation or story arch would be. With new Cass, there's the never ending search for redemption because of her past killings. Plus, drama with Harper, a relationship of some kind with Stephanie, overcoming or learning to live with her speaking/reading/writing disabilities, etc. But with Az, I don't see his future story use at this point.

2) New Cass is being really tightly bound to the Batfam. Batman trusted her and no one else with the USB stick mission. She's been with Dick and Steph most of BRE. If DC uses Cass on a regular basis, I'm sure they'll at least initially use her in Gotham books so she can grow with other Batfam members.

But I really liked Cass in Justice League Elite. I think the whole JLE team except for Cass and Ollie were meta in some way. So having old Cass' mega speed and fighting ability on full display worked fine. Like you said, with players like Coldcast, Hawkgirl, etc you can have a Cass level human with super level feats work nicely.

So after new Cass is established outside of BRE, maybe 2 years, I'd love to see her be a regular in a mostly meta/alien team.

[Godlike13]

Here the thing about team books, a character has to be able to interact and work with other characters in an interesting and entertaining way. This is one of the times where being stoic and mute might not work in the character's favor. Who knew. Plus they usually have to fight as a team. Being in TT doesn't give Cass free reign to beat up God. If Cass is doing things only kid flash should be able to do, and is still being called not a meta, people will still call them out on it. In fact, being on a team means that the character needs the team and their teammates to help them fight and what have u. And Vice-versa...
I not sure Cass fans are gonna be very accepting of watching Cass be out powered from time to time and in need of teammates help. They don't even seem to be ok with her being touched.

Azreal needs a better connection to Batman or something. His power level is not really his problem. People generally not caring about his existence is his problem. They can put him on whatever team they want, its not gonna matter if no one really gives a crap about him or knows why he's even around. He's the cousin Oliver of the Bat family.

[heyevaxx]

...and I don't think it would damage Cass if they would scale down her abilities to the niveau of the other top fighters of the Batfamily...

Good point. I do think DC has moderated new Cassandra's fighting level, at least in comparison to old Cass. New Cass still may be above the rest of the rest of the Batfam, but it's closer. I'm biased, but I think she's been detuned enough to make her more easy to write and fit ok in the Batfam world.

... if it doesn't make sense according to the 'official 'power levels', it can still make sense emotionally.
Wonder Woman should be fast enough to avoid attacks like that, but if she did, then the rest of the story wouldn't happen, so I'm willing to let it slide. Context is everything people.

Very well said. I want the fight leveling to work but it's not an exact science. If leveling is ball park most of the time, I'm happy. And it is.
So true about story needs and context! It reminds me of folks who argue that the Eagles should have just air dropped Frodo at (in?) Mount Doom to solve the Ring issue! While there are a myriad of pros/cons to this, the main thing is it would chop out most or all of the 2nd and 3rd books!

As a fan of Cassandra Cain I would say that while her being a badass was very fun what was really interesting was her story of trying to find her place in the world after being abused into being an assassin by her father. Watching her work out her own identity while everyone around her pushed her into being their ideal version of her (Batman= a heir/ Cain= a perfect assassin and daughter/ Shiva=someone who could finally kill her/ Barbara= someone she could save and live vicariously through, etc) was what made her an endearing character, not her relative power levels with other characters.

So very well said, I wholeheartedly agree.

Since comics use loads of violence as part of their story telling, some readers are more focused on the fighting. More power to them! With comic sales tanking since about 1950, the more readers the merrier.

But I for one, love love love Cassandra's non-fighting qualities in addition to her being a butt kicker. Empathetic, compassionate, socially naive, intense, brooding, guilt ridden, and a seasoned killer who's child like and learning on everything else. She's really a fascinating and magnetic character. I'm really glad she's back relatively intact and hope she gets regular appearances post BRE.

Evidence is throughout Cassandra's solo, Barbara constantly asserting that what Cass needed was TLC and time spent as a "normal person" (save/help). She constantly butted heads with Bruce over her wellbeing. The evidence for living vicariously through is a little thinner but to me its subtle but there. I'm not saying Barbara consciously did this, more of a sub conscious thing.

I agree.

And just by the fact that Babs held the BG mantel for so long and *couldn't* anymore made Cass a conduit for Babs to see success and goodness coming from a Batgirl.

As with any parent, Babs no doubt took satisfaction and pride in Cass being a successful BG. Babs was always a professional mentor and a personally mothering figure to Cass. And then Babs couldn't walk while Cass sure could! Seeing Cass follow in her footsteps must have been very satisfying for Babs.

I think "vicariously" could be taken in the wrong way, as if it was bad and/or a very literal thing. E.g. Babs desperately wants to walk again and has nightmares about being wheelchair bound. So she hooks Cass up with a bunch of GoPros and puts on a VR headset to "feel" like she BG again.

I don't see vicariously as having to be quite so literal or strong. And I think it applies just fine to old Babs with old Cass. It's a shame it's highly unlikely to happen with new Cass; their relationship in the old days was as important to Cass as her fighting ability.

Here the thing about team books, a character has to be able to interact and work with other characters in an interesting and entertaining way. This one of the times where being stoic and mute doesn't work in the character's favor. Who knew. Plus they usually have to fight as a team. Being in TT doesn't give Cass free reign to beat up God. If Cass is doing things only kid flash should be able to do, and is still being called not a meta, people will still call them out on it. In fact, being on a team means that the character needs the team and their teammates to help them fight and what have u. And Vice-versa...
I not sure Cass fans are gonna be very accepting of watching Cass be out powered from time to time and in need of teammates help. They don't even seem to be ok with her being touched.

Cass was stoic and mostly mute in JLE and I enjoyed her there quite a bit. You might not which is fine.

Old Cass can and did fight in groups against baddies. Many times in fact.

Who said Cass should be able to beat up God or fight like Kid Flash?

I think bat_girl_cc is saying that Cass fighting at the maximum of her current level or even into the zone of old Cass would be less controversial if she was in a group of meta/aliens instead of normal humans. It makes sense.

I am a Cass fan and am accepting if she is out powered from time to time and needs help. But, as Cowtools wisely said "Context is everything people" so a decent story about Cass being out powered would be nice.

I'm ok with new Cass being touched in fights. Dick grabbed her neck, so did Jase, Orphan kicked Cass or a door that hit Cass, he also grabbed Cass from behind and threw her. This is all fine. I'm even kinda ok with the lead ballerina gut-kicking Cass and then her kicking knocked in the head with the candlestick. I did not like Cass being held and gut punched but that was a story element setting up Dick saving them so it's cool.

So, to sum up, I think I disagree with your last comment.

[Godlike13]

I know what the op is saying. My point is people would still have problems with Cass doing things like beating up Deathstroke or out running bullets in Teen Titans. I would even be worse because they can't devalue the need for the team. Cass can't just beat up Deatstroke in TT, someone who often requires the entire team to take down, and if she did people wouldn't be "thats ok" because it was in TTs.
And being stoic and mute can make it hard for them to have her to interact with the other characters. She can't talk to them, she read them but they can't read her, and it often limits what they can do with her in a team setting. Often times shes just becomes the bad ass ninja girl in the background. Character might comment on here, but rarely do they comment with her. She can't have killed all their mothers if u know what i mean.

And Babs living vicariously through Cass is insulting to Babs. Thats not gonna fly. Sorry.

[Agent Z]

I know what the op is saying. My point is people would still have problems with Cass doing things like beating up Deathstroke or out running bullets in Teen Titans. I would even be worse because it would devalue the need for the team. Cass can't just beat the Deatstroke in TT, someone who often requires the entire team to take down, and if she did people wouldn't be "thats ok" because it was in TTs.
And being stoic and mute can make it hard for her to interact other characters. She can't talk to them, she read them but they can't read her, and it often limits what they can do with her in a team setting. Often times shes just becomes the bad ass ninja girl in the background. Character might comment on here, but rarely do they comment with her. She can't have killed all their mothers if u know what i mean.

And Babs living vicariously through Cass is insulting to Babs. Thats not gonna fly. Sorry.

You do realize that even in the old continuity there were far more powerful characters than Cass right? How the hell would she make a team with sorcerors, psychics, speedsters etc redundant?

[Aahz]

But I really liked Cass in Justice League Elite. I think the whole JLE team except for Cass and Ollie were meta in some way. So having old Cass' mega speed and fighting ability on full display worked fine. Like you said, with players like Coldcast, Hawkgirl, etc you can have a Cass level human with super level feats work nicely.

Cass actually had the belt of the Shadow Thief which gave her a power.

Cass was stoic and mostly mute in JLE and I enjoyed her there quite a bit. You might not which is fine.

I don't really remember that series, was she really one of the main protagonists?
But any way it really depends on the writer I think, some may pull it of with others she will probably fade more into the back ground out of Combat.

And I'm not really sure if she really fits in the current teen titans cast, which is imo allready to big. And I really doubt that there is enough space in series to give her much character development.

[Godlike13]

You do realize that even in the old continuity there were far more powerful characters than Cass right? How the hell would she make a team with sorcerors, psychics, speedsters etc redundant?

Not redundant, unnecessary. My point is that its not gonna fly for Cass to beat up a guy like Deathstroke, TT's classic arch nemesis, anymore in a team book then it would in her solo. Less so even in the team book because they can't devalue the need for them teaming up.

[Agent Z]

Not redundant, unnecessary. Why do the TTs need to team up is Cass could beat up their arc nemesis by herself. My point is that not gonna fly anymore in a team book then it would in her solo. Less so even because its a team book.

Firstly, do the Titans even fight Deathstoke anymore? Secondly, just cause she can beat Deathstroke (something plenty of other heroes have done) she can't do anything against Trigon, Jinx, Mammoth etc. At least not by herself.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Cass actually had the belt of the Shadow Thief which gave her a power. .

She only have that for one op. The rest of the time, she relied on her combat skills