Azrael and Cassandra Cain's place on the dc universe

[Godlike13]

Firstly, do the Titans even fight Deathstoke anymore? Secondly, just cause she can beat Deathstroke (something plenty of other heroes have done) she can't do anything against Trigon, Jinx, Mammoth etc. At least not by herself.

I don't know what the Titans are doing anymore, but thats not my point. Deathstroke was just an example. Being in a team book doesn't give them free reign to give characters ridiculous feats that non meta characters obviously shouldn't be able to do. People will still cry foul. Like u say, she can't do anything against guys like Trigon, Jinx, Mammoth etc. At least not by herself. Even with a guy like Deathstroke it wouldn't be ok for her to just beat him up because its in TTs. She will still have limits, and people will still cry foul if they think they are cheating with those limits even in a book like TT. More people even because u probably have more of a general audience reading those books then strictly Cass Cain fans.

[bat_girl_cc]

True but the boundaries and consistency of the rules of a fantasy environment are key to making it believable. Since you and I know all of Cass' stories very well, we see a consistency (at least up to OYL) and believe in the world she lives in. The feats she preforms make sense based on her pre-OYL corpus.

But other comics fans, maybe some who aren't as familiar with old Cass or not fans of hers, might not see her feats as consistent or sensible. Even in the comic world setting. And that's the key: fiction, especially in highly fantastical worlds, is exceedingly subjective. Put another way, different strokes for different folks. Cass may not fit in some reader's comic realities for whatever reason. And it's not an objective argument, i.e. there's no finally getting someone to believe the "right" way about what makes sense in comics.

3 reality examples:

1) Cass outrunning a bullet. There's a Batgirl where Cass comes out a safe room vault and confronts a large group of criminals (like 20) who were about to enter. A guy about 10-12 feet from Cass fires a handgun at her head and in the next frame she's closed the 10-12 distance and is about to hit him. The trick is: the 2nd frame shows the bullet at about the spot where Cass started. Thus, she moved about bullet speed which is not possible for a non-meta, non-alien, non-robot, non-magic, non-miracle-drugged person.

I repeat: not possible. But Cass fans may shrug their shoulders and say "meh, she did it cause she's awesome!" But some Cass fans (like me!), people who don't read Cass, and active Cass dislikers say "this is another example of PIS, wrongly pumping a character to meta levels when they're claiming she's just human."

2) Dick one shotting Midnighter. While holding a baby. I don't follow Grayson but from what I know about both toons, this is nuts. I also recall Batman knocking out the Flash from years ago. So these things don't make sense to me but they're not really big deals since I'm not that invested in those toons or those particular stories.

3) The new Batgirl art team is way too cartoony for me. I read a page and I can barely take in the dialog because the art communicates a tone and a feeling that completely contradicts the kind of comics I'm used to. So I don't read Batgirl which is too bad since I'm a Babs fan. But that's me. I know the current Batgirl title has loads of fans since it's sales are decent (a lot better than Catwoman! my fave).

So comics' reality in fungable and a function of the reader. If the fantasy world is *too* outlandish and inconsistent, then almost no readers will feel comfortable with the stories set in it. But boundaries, even though it's the comics, are required for most readers to like the setting.


Well, every fan (which is short for "fanatic") is going to be biased. You and I are "obviously biased" for Cassandra Cain. I think bias in western cultures has become a euphemism for an incorrect or irrational opinion based on unreasonable feelings. What rubbish! We are biased on almost everything we think about. And especially about fiction.

So I think it's not reasonable to argue fan of toon X is "totally wrong" when they complain about getting stomped by toon Y. It's their opinion and may not jive with mine but "totally wrong" should really be reserved for 1+1=3, pure mathematics with no units (i.e. no lbs, meters, euros, etc).


Ok, first off, are we talking old pre52 or New52? Because while the new characters are of course familiar because of their old versions, they are *new* and different. In particular, new Azrael is very different from the old, unlike new Cass who is pretty similar in her abilities (though slightly detuned fighting) and background.

I was surprised and very disappointed that Tim had such an easy fight with new Az. Old Tim was above Steph in fighting IMO but he wasn't great. New Tim seems to be a great fighter! And he seems irritable, angry, and unlikable. My only exposure to new Tim is BRE so maybe he's written differently elsewhere.

But new Az, oh it's so sad. I'd hoped a really hard fight requiring both Tim and Jason would occur without Az even being clearly defeated. Not so, not so. Old Az was a really good fighter with his mask on while here he's mostly flash, i.e. he looks cool. Also, the new Az story is very different: there's no discovery left for him, no unlocking how or why he's Az. That was his whole quest in the old days. Now, he knows what he is, wants to be it, and just got his butt handed to him by the world's second greatest detective. Bah!

So, to your point, I don't know why anyone would complain about *new* Az being too powerful or able to do this or that. New Az was soundly defeated by a Batman protégé. Seeing Az immobilized by Tim and his shouting "I am Azrael!..." was so depressing.

For new Cass, that's a different argument since new Cass actually has been shown to be extremely capable. And not just fighting since she somehow did something(s) to get the ARGUS jet to overfly Mother's nursery. But new Cass fighting ability and their fit in the New52 Batfam has been a discussion beaten to death. Though I'll go there again if anyone wants to!


This is a great idea! Except...

1) I think new Az may be just appearing in BRE to only be set aside for very rare later appearances. I just don't see his path forward, I don't know what his motivation or story arch would be. With new Cass, there's the never ending search for redemption because of her past killings. Plus, drama with Harper, a relationship of some kind with Stephanie, overcoming or learning to live with her speaking/reading/writing disabilities, etc. But with Az, I don't see his future story use at this point.

2) New Cass is being really tightly bound to the Batfam. Batman trusted her and no one else with the USB stick mission. She's been with Dick and Steph most of BRE. If DC uses Cass on a regular basis, I'm sure they'll at least initially use her in Gotham books so she can grow with other Batfam members.

But I really liked Cass in Justice League Elite. I think the whole JLE team except for Cass and Ollie were meta in some way. So having old Cass' mega speed and fighting ability on full display worked fine. Like you said, with players like Coldcast, Hawkgirl, etc you can have a Cass level human with super level feats work nicely.

So after new Cass is established outside of BRE, maybe 2 years, I'd love to see her be a regular in a mostly meta/alien team.

1) I just had this idea, and was curious to see what others think
2) I'm talking about pre-52, since new 52 is still "too young"...and yeah, Tim out-maneuvering Jean Paul Valley was dumb.
3) Cass is a good fit amoung the bat-family, and of course that i enjoy alot seeing her interact with other bat-family members, which could still happen anyway, but Cass could have a "safety-net" to fall on "feat-wise".

[bat_girl_cc]

I know what the op is saying. My point is people would still have problems with Cass doing things like beating up Deathstroke or out running bullets in Teen Titans. I would even be worse because they can't devalue the need for the team. Cass can't just beat up Deatstroke in TT, someone who often requires the entire team to take down, and if she did people wouldn't be "thats ok" because it was in TTs.
And being stoic and mute can make it hard for them to have her to interact with the other characters. She can't talk to them, she read them but they can't read her, and it often limits what they can do with her in a team setting. Often times shes just becomes the bad ass ninja girl in the background. Character might comment on here, but rarely do they comment with her. She can't have killed all their mothers if u know what i mean.

And Babs living vicariously through Cass is insulting to Babs. Thats not gonna fly. Sorry.

Well, imagine Deathstroke kicking the Titans asses because he's a tacticle beast and he can use their numbers advantage against them, then Cass arrives and kicks his ass 1-on-1, saving the day, that's a good set-up for the finale of a teen titans arc.
And yeah, i'm not OK with normal humans touching Cass in fights, its dumb and shouldn't happen, (if you search for Cass every fight pre-52, low showings and all, even against meta-humans, the number of times that she got touched in all of those fights combined, is probably below 30...) unless of course you're Lady Shiva level fighter, and even so you shouldn't touch Cass more than 2, 3 times per fight...now, i wouldn't have a probably with WonderGirl giving Cass a hard time.
And i enjoyed alot her interactions on justice league elite, and Batman and the outsiders, so she can work on a team...Batman is kinda like Cass when you think about it, he's someone of few words, crazy skilled but no powers and he works on the JL.

[Aahz]

In the case of Jean-Paul we actually don't really know if the new 52 version has powers and how skilled he is. He is now one of mothers children which afaik don't have powers so maybe is is not genetically/alchemistically enhanced and doesn't have the Systhem anymore. The only thing we have seen sofar was the ability to create hallucinations, something that he didn't had pre flashpoint and might come from a gadget and not be a power. So it's hard to say if he fits in the Batman comics or not.

And yeah, i'm not OK with normal humans touching Cass in fights, its dumb and shouldn't happen, (if you search for Cass every fight pre-52, low showings and all, even against meta-humans, the number of times that she got touched in all of those fights combined, is probably below 30...) unless of course you're Lady Shiva level fighter, and even so you shouldn't touch Cass more than 2, 3 times per fight...now, i wouldn't have a probably with WonderGirl giving Cass a hard time.

The sing is even Shiva wasn't allways (and probably isn't in the new 52) untouchable and completely out of the league for Batman, and has afaik never performed any super human feats. So if Cass was written on a level similar to Shiva she would still perfectly fit in the Batfamily.

[The Cool Thatguy]

The sing is even Shiva wasn't allways (and probably isn't in the new 52) untouchable and completely out of the league for Batman, and has afaik never performed any super human feats. So if Cass was written on a level similar to Shiva she would still perfectly fit in the Batfamily.

Ya know, I'm at a loss as to why Cass has to be less bad ass to fit into the Batclan, when Tim is just as smart, Dick just as capable, etc.

[Agent Z]

Ya know, I'm at a loss as to why Cass has to be less bad ass to fit into the Batclan, when Tim is just as smart, Dick just as capable, etc.

Exactly. The things the Batclan have done have always stretched suspension of disbelief. And in Cass case, martial arts is pretty much the only area she excels at.

[hero talk]

I always disliked babs saying batman only like cass as a weapon he never said that and he never replied to those comments ether
as for him giving her tlc he tried crime fighting is just how the batfamily spends time together its like fishing for them and Babs all ready knows that
which is why I feel like it was kind of oc when ever babs would say something like that it also made me feel like she wanted to see batman cry or something

[Lady Nightwing]

Well, imagine Deathstroke kicking the Titans asses because he's a tacticle beast and he can use their numbers advantage against them, then Cass arrives and kicks his ass 1-on-1, saving the day, that's a good set-up for the finale of a teen titans arc.

Batman is kinda like Cass when you think about it, he's someone of few words, crazy skilled but no powers and he works on the JL.

No offence but that's the kind of arc that would leave me cold to Cass. In that one scenario she rendered a team of meta's obsolete. I'd like Cass to be a top tier martial artist. I'd be fine with her beating Batman at hand to hand but no meta feats such as out running a bullet. I know Batman has pulled off ridiculous feats but one Batgod is more than enough

[bat_girl_cc]

In the case of Jean-Paul we actually don't really know if the new 52 version has powers and how skilled he is. He is now one of mothers children which afaik don't have powers so maybe is is not genetically/alchemistically enhanced and doesn't have the Systhem anymore. The only thing we have seen sofar was the ability to create hallucinations, something that he didn't had pre flashpoint and might come from a gadget and not be a power. So it's hard to say if he fits in the Batman comics or not.

The sing is even Shiva wasn't allways (and probably isn't in the new 52) untouchable and completely out of the league for Batman, and has afaik never performed any super human feats. So if Cass was written on a level similar to Shiva she would still perfectly fit in the Batfamily.

New 52 Lady Shiva is horrible...calling that women Lady Shiva is actually a insult to the character's rich history.

[bat_girl_cc]

No offence but that's the kind of arc that would leave me cold to Cass. In that one scenario she rendered a team of meta's obsolete. I'd like Cass to be a top tier martial artist. I'd be fine with her beating Batman at hand to hand but no meta feats such as out running a bullet. I know Batman has pulled off ridiculous feats but one Batgod is more than enough

Actually here's a fun fact...it is PIS for Batman, but not for Cass, because Cass used to do it consistently!...for Batman, a character with over 11.000 appearences, those kinds of feats it was once in a life-time...it's not consistent for him to do it, as it is for Cass.
But i get what you're saying.
But hey, on the other hand there's a thing called high-showings and everyone has them, same for low-showings