The Sentry vs. Goku

[buutenks]

IIRC his base form = the power he had as a SSG when he fought Beerus. Though the fact that even in his SSB form he can't take on Beerus; it doesn't say much about the forms multiplier atm. Pretty piss poor actually. But I imagine it has the potential to give the same type of boost as the SSJ3 form can give based on interviews from AT saying that the original SSJ form can give the same boost but without the downside.

nah beerus says to goku,u got much stronger wanna fight me?This is before ssj blue,during his training with whis.

So id say he definitely surpassed his previous level of power in base form which was ssj god.

Edit:i dont see the new ssj forms as multipliers,i see them as tiers.

Once goku achieved ssj blue he got to a new tier of power,not to beerus' tier but a higher tier than ssj god.

[Cody]

nah beerus says to goku,u got much stronger wanna fight me?This is before ssj blue,during his training with whis.

So id say he definitely surpassed his previous level of power in base form which was ssj god.

Well even if he did...the increase would be basically negligible. Otherwise Beerus wouldn't be a challenge to him. AT's previous power ratings still stand, so if SSG Goku was a "6" and Beerus a "10"..and if SSB Goku was still weaker than a 100% Beerus yet stronger than a 70% Beerus..how much of a boost do you think the SSB gives? At least before if his base was on par with the power he had as a SSG then SSB would at least multiply his power by like..1.5. If his base is now stronger? That...makes the increase even less impressive.

But again..at least it has the potential to give him a big fat increase in power. It just is rather pathetic atm.

[buutenks]

Well even if he did...the increase would be basically negligible. Otherwise Beerus wouldn't be a challenge to him. AT's previous power ratings still stand, so if SSG Goku was a "6" and Beerus a "10"..and if SSB Goku was still weaker than a 100% Beerus yet stronger than a 70% Beerus..how much of a boost do you think the SSB gives? At least before if his base was on par with the power he had as a SSG then SSB would at least multiply his power by like..1.5. If his base is now stronger? That...makes the increase even less impressive.

But again..at least it has the potential to give him a big fat increase in power. It just is rather pathetic atm.

Idk how the multipliers go now,but im guessing they arent meant to be taken to seriously.

[Len Ikari145]

Well even if he did...the increase would be basically negligible. Otherwise Beerus wouldn't be a challenge to him. AT's previous power ratings still stand, so if SSG Goku was a "6" and Beerus a "10"..and if SSB Goku was still weaker than a 100% Beerus yet stronger than a 70% Beerus..how much of a boost do you think the SSB gives? At least before if his base was on par with the power he had as a SSG then SSB would at least multiply his power by like..1.5. If his base is now stronger? That...makes the increase even less impressive.

But again..at least it has the potential to give him a big fat increase in power. It just is rather pathetic atm.

It does make you wonder just how wide the power gap is between 70% Beerus and 100% Beerus since Whis has claimed that it would take Goku and Vegeta working together to possibly defeat Beerus in a fight. Whether that means through teamwork or fusion (Vegeta assumed the latter when Whis brought it up), I'm not sure.

[Cyke]

It does make you wonder just how wide the power gap is between 70% Beerus and 100% Beerus since Whis has claimed that it would take Goku and Vegeta working together to possibly defeat Beerus in a fight. Whether that means through teamwork or fusion (Vegeta assumed the latter when Whis brought it up), I'm not sure.

Eh, it'll probably be answered in a saga or two, at this rate.

[Siriel]

2) Super Saiyan Blue is stated to be superior to Super Saiyan God in the fifth manga chapter of Super. Goku, in both the movie and Super, is noted to have absorbed and retained the power of SSG in both his base and regular Super Saiyan form by Beerus, which is why his power didn't dip after his God transformation ended. Ergo, it does not make sense to claim that Super Saiyan Blue is weaker than Super Saiyan God.

Cool, so it becomes option three and the fight is a massive outlier not supported by anything else before or after since a fight between a much stronger Goku and a Freeza who's even more powerful than him caused none of the danger than the fight against Beerus did, despite lacking the steps taken by Beerus to prevent said danger.

Edit: And to save people the trouble of going "They were clearly restraining their energy!", no, the Beerus fight made a big deal that had Beerus not negated the clash with his full power the universe would have been destroyed despite that being neither his nor Goku's intention at the time.

[Cody]

Cool, so it becomes option three and the fight is a massive outlier not supported by anything else before or after since a fight between a much stronger Goku and a Freeza who's even more powerful than him caused none of the danger than the fight against Beerus did, despite lacking the steps taken by Beerus to prevent said danger.

This has been explained already. They know how to keep their power from messing up the universe. Which is why Beerus and Goku didn't continue to wreck the universe as the fight went on. It's no different from ki control when they could keep their attacks from blowing up the earth.

In order for the fight to be an outlier there would have to be something to contradict it. This was Beerus' first fight in Super, so there is nothing to contradict it whatsoever. And for Goku, this was his first fight after getting a boost in power. You even see during the fight between Goku and Beerus that Goku learned how to keep his power in check so that their punches don't cause anymore problems. The fight with Frieza is no different as Goku already learned how to do it and has been training for quite some time in order to further control and properly use his power. While Frieza has beent raining for months and would have learned the same thing. And Goku and Frieza didn't get into any beam clash so there was no opportunity for any mayhem to go on.

Trying to deny feats just because you don't like them isn't going to make them invalid Siriel.

[Siriel]

This has been explained already. They know how to keep their power from messing up the universe. Which is why Beerus and Goku didn't continue to wreck the universe as the fight went on.

That was the case for the waves of reverse entropy nonsense, which aren't relevant for a fight due to getting stronger as they move away from the point of origin, yes.

We're talking about the energy blast clash, which was specifically only stopped by Beerus negating both of their attacks with his full power.

Trying to deny feats just because you don't like them isn't going to make them invalid Siriel.

Personal attacks are not arguments.

[Cody]

That was the case for the waves of reverse entropy nonsense, which aren't relevant for a fight due to getting stronger as they move away from the point of origin, yes.

The physical impacts on the other hand are. As they still caused damage to several planets and shook the galaxy before the shockwave ever even happened.

We're talking about the energy blast clash, which was specifically only stopped by Beerus negating both of their attacks with his full power.

Which still isn't really contradicted by....anything? First fight for Beerus actually going serious in the anime, and first fight for SSG Goku. And as I said in the post you replied to; there was no beam clash between Goku and Frieza so there wasn't any chance for them to cause mayhem across the universe and beyond like the fight between Goku and Beerus.

Personal attacks are not arguments.

I don't see how accusations of disregarding feats are personal attacks.

[Siriel]

The physical impacts on the other hand are. As they still caused damage to several planets and shook the galaxy before the shockwave ever even happened.

Earth is right there, and wasn't exactly destroyed (though yes they did cause planetary events).

You can't say "look at this collateral damage!" and simultaneously say that the lack of collateral damage doesn't count.

I don't see how accusations of disregarding feats are personal attacks.

Well see, there's this thing where you're implying I'm distorting evidence to push some sort of agenda, which doesn't actually exists.

The reverse entropy waves are I think a profoundly silly thing, but they do exist. That doesn't make them a relevant feat when it comes to punching people.

[Cody]

Earth is right there, and wasn't exactly destroyed (though yes they did cause planetary events).

They have some manner of control. If they had the Earth bust there wouldn't be much of a story now would there be? In the manga; there are no entropy shockwaves. They just shake the entire universe with their blows.

You can't say "look at this collateral damage!" and simultaneously say that the lack of collateral damage doesn't count.

It's called plot shields, which is what the Earth in this instance has. Doesn't change the fact that planets were destroyed and the galaxy shook even before the shockwave came about.

Well see, there's this thing where you're implying I'm distorting evidence to push some sort of agenda, which doesn't actually exists.

When one is trying their hardest to try and make a feat invalid, even going as far as to disregard all the damage caused just because the planet where the main characters are from is okay, tends to make one seem.....biased.

The reverse entropy waves are I think a profoundly silly thing, but they do exist. That doesn't make them a relevant feat when it comes to punching people.

No but the shaking of the galaxy and the planets being destroyed before the shockwave came about does. As does the entire universe outright shaking in the manga.

[Siriel]

That's cool, but you'll have to decide if you want to argue the anime or the manga, seeing as there are clear differences in portrayals.

When one is trying their hardest to try and make a feat invalid, even going as far as to disregard all the damage caused just because the planet where the main characters are from is okay, tends to make one seem.....biased.

I'll ask you to stop embarrassing yourself.

[Siriel]

Also I was ignoring this until now because I was giving you the benefit of the doubt and had to go check that my memories of the fight were correct.

And Goku and Frieza didn't get into any beam clash so there was no opportunity for any mayhem to go on.

Episode 25, around eleven minutes in. I must be imagining those being beams clashing for roughly five minutes.

I must say though, this is quite an hilarious thing to happen while you're in the middle of accusing me of deliberately misrepresenting feats.

[Nik Hasta]

I find it kind of perversely amusing that instead of "Yeah, but they never busted planets or did anywhere the kind of collateral that their implied power levels should entail," has now become "Yeah, but they significantly damaged the entire universe or did anywhere near the kind of collateral that their implied power levels should entail,"

It's like the more Dragonball changes, the more it stays the same.

I still stand by my assessment that the whole universe shaking feat is almost unusable because the whole reverse entropy punch doesn't make any sense, is totally unquantifiable and hasn't really been corroborated by anything at this juncture. Like, Goku and people on his level are hecka strong. I don't think that's in dispute.

That feat is just really problematic.

[Cody]

That's cool, but you'll have to decide if you want to argue the anime or the manga, seeing as there are clear differences in portrayals.

Not really. Either you say they can shake a galaxy and destroy planets or just shake the universe. You decide which is more impressive.

I'll ask you to stop embarrassing yourself.

So you don't deny being biased then? And I'm the one whose embarrassing himself for accusing you of this? K.

Also I was ignoring this until now because I was giving you the benefit of the doubt and had to go check that my memories of the fight were correct.



Episode 25, around eleven minutes in. I must be imagining those being beams clashing for roughly five minutes.

It also is very different from the beam clash between Beerus and Goku in appearance, and length. In this case one is using normal ki vs a guy using God Ki, while in the other it involved someone using God ki vs another person using God Ki. That and Goku learned how to nullify ki himself and control his power so that it wouldn't leak out and be so destructive. Then there is the fact that both Beerus and SSG Goku were actively trying to put more ki into their attacks until it became condensed and was no longer a beam clash but them pushing the ball containing their energy.

I must say though, this is quite an hilarious thing to happen while you're in the middle of accusing me of deliberately misrepresenting feats.

Me forgetting about a beam struggle isn't the same as you actively trying to invalidate something just because you don't like it and because it didn't happen again between Goku and Frieza, despite the fact that Goku has learned how to control his power better and Frieza has been training on how to use, improve, and control his ki better.

I find it kind of perversely amusing that instead of "Yeah, but they never busted planets or did anywhere the kind of collateral that their implied power levels should entail," has now become "Yeah, but they significantly damaged the entire universe or did anywhere near the kind of collateral that their implied power levels should entail,"

It's like the more Dragonball changes, the more it stays the same.

With people trying their hardest to disregard feats from DB when you never see them doing the same with any other series? Yea, more stays the same alright.

I still stand by my assessment that the whole universe shaking feat is almost unusable because the whole reverse entropy punch doesn't make any sense, is totally unquantifiable and hasn't really been corroborated by anything at this juncture. Like, Goku and people on his level are hecka strong. I don't think that's in dispute.

That feat is just really problematic.

We are talking about the beam clash here. The shockwaves can be ignored as they themselves never shook the universe in the anime, that was the manga. They shook the galaxy and destroyed planets just by their punches connecting, then the shockwave was sent throughout of the universe and beyond. As has been pointed out several times in this thread(and others) already.