Did Copperhead get cancelled too!!!! >:(

[Dr. Cheesesteak]

Is this true for sure? I know #1 sold something crazy, like 80k, but #6 was down to 34k. Meanwhile Batman averaged like 120k for five years. I’m just thinking about single issue profits on Wytches v Batman. The trade profits would certainly favor creator owned.

I have always assumed Snyder was getting the highest page rate at the Big2 because of how well Batman was selling.

I just wish Scott and Rafael would get back to American Vampire which unfortunately only sells like 12k.

Even the highest page rate for Big 2 writers (if memory serves me right) is about $120/page. So Snyder would be making ~$2.5k/mo from Batman singles (not sure how TPB royalties, any sort of comps or sponsorships, etc work), before taxes. Not too shabby all things considered. (http://www.makingcomics.com/2014/10/...tists-writers/ for some confirmation. Google probably has more results)

From my understanding in the past, Image used to take a flat fee up front for publication. Per their site, now they take a "small/modest fee" each issue. Per Jim Zubkavich (http://www.jimzub.com/the-reality-of...-owned-comics/), Image takes $0.80/issue. But overall, he says $0.30/issue is made after the publisher, Diamond, and retailers take their cut. Not sure if he's using cement numbers or just using some broad examples.

Either way, $0.30 x 15,000 (around the Low, Descender, Klaus sales range...solid indie sales) comes to $4.5k. That's split between writer, artist, colorist, letter, etc, however they agree upon. I'll presume colorists and letterers don't demand much, they do bulk work anyway. Also, lots of indie artists color their own stuff and writers even letter their own work. I'll presume a writer makes in the range of $2k-2.5k from a 15k/mo indie seller. If you're Hickman, BKV, Kirkman, etc, you're selling in the 20k-60k range, and probably selling another title or 2 as back up. So that's much more $$

So...
If you're an ELITE Big 2 headliner writer, you'll make ~$2.5k/mo per title
If you're a SOLID indie writer, you'll make ~$2.5k/mo off one title
If you're an ELITE indie writer, you can be making $7k~10k/mo off 2-3 titles

Of course, these are not definitive #'s, but ultimately, indie writing isn't guaranteed more money. But the ceiling is much much higher.

[SwampyCA]

You could be right. I just find it hard to believe. With Batman selling about a minimum of 120k @ $4 that is 480k a month, I would just assume Snyder gets a bigger piece of the pie than 2500 out of 480000.

As for Image, not a whole lot of titles sell more than 15k a month. It’s really the name guys getting into that territory.

If we use the 30 cent model the last issue of Copperhead sold 8.6k. In other words about 2600 profit for the entire creative team.

Hopefully they reap more in trade profits. Although speaking of Jim Zub he is about pricing me out of the Wayward trades as each one gets more expensive.

[Dr. Cheesesteak]

You could be right. I just find it hard to believe. With Batman selling about a minimum of 120k @ $4 that is 480k a month, I would just assume Snyder gets a bigger piece of the pie than 2500 out of 480000.

Well, DC DOES have a lot to pay for on books...publishing cost, various management salaries, contracts to letterers/colorists maybe, royalties to creators' families(?), etc. Maybe Snyder gets more, like $150/pg? Who knows.

As for Image, not a whole lot of titles sell more than 15k a month. It’s really the name guys getting into that territory.

If we use the 30 cent model the last issue of Copperhead sold 8.6k. In other words about 2600 profit for the entire creative team.

Hopefully they reap more in trade profits. Although speaking of Jim Zub he is about pricing me out of the Wayward trades as each one gets more expensive.

really? He's increasing prices? Makes me wonder if they get %-based profits on TPBs sales or if it's like a flat fee (I think I remember hearing it was a flat fee? Maybe depends on publisher). I love Zub, I wish him more success cuz I like the guy, and I know he's passionate about writing comics.

And speaking of publisher, we are discussing Big 2 and creator-owned pay scales. If you're curious about licensed titles from Dark Horse, IDW, etc, from what I hear, the writers get paid up front for X amount of issues. At least for Dark Horse. Not sure about IDW, BOOM!, Archie, etc. But I know I've heard Dark Horse pays creators up front for 25 issues of Conan or Aliens, etc. Not sure how much or what kinda money creators get from TPB, but know your $ spent on licensed (Dark Horse only?) titles DON'T go to the creators - they got paid already.

[Joker]

Trade money is the same as single issues. It's based on sales, and that's where you're making the bulk of your money.

Hickman talked pretty openly about that stuff in this podcast on SKTCHD. http://sktchd.com/podcast/off-panel-...athan-hickman/

It's worth a listen if you're a fan, and the industry stuff is worth it even if you're not. He's a pretty straight shooter so there's a lot you're not going to usually hear creators talk about.

[SwampyCA]

Thanks for the podcast link.

If Hickman says working at the Big2 is a big pay cut for him, then that must be true for Snyder or any of the name guys that can sell major units at Image.

It’s interesting to hear trades are potentially more profitable than the selling of the single issues.

[Joker]

It’s interesting to hear trades are potentially more profitable than the selling of the single issues.

Is it? I wasn't surprised. Single issues are a short sale. I also imagine a lot of people read comics, but don't do the single issue/Wednesday thing.

[Dr. Cheesesteak]

If Hickman says working at the Big2 is a big pay cut for him, then that must be true for Snyder or any of the name guys that can sell major units at Image.

I presume the Big 2's appeal to major writers that can flourish off indie sales is that it's regular/consistent/guaranteed income and, again I presume, offers benefits of some sorts. Also, the opportunity to write characters they may really want a shot at.

[SwampyCA]

Is it? I wasn't surprised. Single issues are a short sale. I also imagine a lot of people read comics, but don't do the single issue/Wednesday thing.

Yes, he said depending on pricing a trade can be $1 more profitable than the singles.
If you sell 5 @ 3.99 (19.95) and yet somehow the 14.99 trade reaps one dollar more profit, I was surprised. Based on the discussion of the 9.99 price for Image V1 trades the singles will definitely be more profitable.

I presume the Big 2's appeal to major writers that can flourish off indie sales is that it's regular/consistent/guaranteed income and, again I presume, offers benefits of some sorts. Also, the opportunity to write characters they may really want a shot at.

If you listen to the podcast he gets into all of this near the end (around minute 56 or 57). For a big name (Bru, Vaughn, Hick, Fraction) it sounds like there is no financial reason to work for the Big2. Only if they have the time and have stories to tell with these characters.

[JFP]

This sounds harsh to me.
I’m pretty sure people who choose to make comics understand it’s not a get rich quick scheme. Also my guess is instead of them thinking “it’s not worth my time” it’s more like “my family needs to eat. I need a paycheck”

Harsh or not, he's expressing a legitimate issue with supporting creator-owned comics: the abrupt delays and cancellations. It causes people to say, "Why bother?"

I wonder how Jay Faeber is taking it. He seems like a genuinely nice guy and cares about being honest with fans. It must really suck for him. By saying to Jay, "My family needs to eat. I need a paycheck." he's delaying Jay. What about Jay's family? What about Jay's paycheck? That was money out of his own pocket to the artist. Ouch.

[Anduinel]

I presume the Big 2's appeal to major writers that can flourish off indie sales is that it's regular/consistent/guaranteed income and, again I presume, offers benefits of some sorts. Also, the opportunity to write characters they may really want a shot at.

I'd guess this is why DC's latest round of exclusive contracts was actually exclusive -- DC only, not just "don't work for Marvel" as it's been in past years.

[Dr. Cheesesteak]

I'd guess this is why DC's latest round of exclusive contracts was actually exclusive -- DC only, not just "don't work for Marvel" as it's been in past years.

Good point. Having the Vertigo imprint is a pretty nice incentive. Writers can still do their creator-owned stuff, just under Vertigo (and whatever business difference that entails vs Image, DH, etc).

[Drunk Viking]

This sounds harsh to me.
I’m pretty sure people who choose to make comics understand it’s not a get rich quick scheme. Also my guess is instead of them thinking “it’s not worth my time” it’s more like “my family needs to eat. I need a paycheck”

That is admittedly harsh, but as others have mentioned, wouldn't you expect a lot of people to hesitate when picking up a new Faerber/Snyder/etc book knowing that there's a good chance it will be delayed up to and possibly exceeding a year?

Looking at last month's numbers, Image Comic sales have dropped below 8% in total unit sales, down from about 10.3% just the previous year. 2.3% doesn't sound like much, but that's about a 30% drop in total sales for them. People just aren't buying as many Image comics. Yes, there's lots of speculation on why that may be, but in my humble opinion it's a bit naive to think that these huge scheduling delays aren't at least a factor.

[MajorHoy]

That is admittedly harsh, but as others have mentioned, wouldn't you expect a lot of people to hesitate when picking up a new Faerber/Snyder/etc book knowing that there's a good chance it will be delayed up to and possibly exceeding a year?

Looking at last month's numbers, Image Comic sales have dropped below 8% in total unit sales, down from about 10.3% just the previous year. 2.3% doesn't sound like much, but that's about a 30% drop in total sales for them. People just aren't buying as many Image comics. Yes, there's lots of speculation on why that may be, but in my humble opinion it's a bit naive to think that these huge scheduling delays aren't at least a factor.

But, is Image making up some of those lost sales (at least through Diamond) in digital and tpb collection sales?

Diamond numbers just represent a decrease in orders by comic book shops. Does anyone know if there's been any serious decrease in the number of comic book shops that use Diamond, or if maybe those shops shifted ordering priorities to DC & Marvel for single issues?

[JFP]

Wait, hold on. Now that I think about it, in a way that's even worse. So basically he started out like many others on independent books hoping to cash in on high trade sales and/or selling the rights, and when he realized it's not making as much money as he was hoping for, his response is "Eh, screw it, why should I bother if it's not worth my time"?

I get that at the end of the day it's a job and it's about making money, which I have no problem with, but that's incredibly disheartening. That's exactly why people like myself are getting more and more jaded about picking up new independent series'. What's the point; they're likely to cancel it if the first few issues don't sell insanely high. But that's probably a segue into another conversation about collectability/demand/etc.

I'm sure I'm being overly harsh. But whether it's from being overworked or underpaid, series being canceled after a couple arcs or being delayed for over a year are annoying as hell.

I agree exactly with what you're saying. Delays and cancellations are way more and more fans are becoming less enthusiastic about new releases.

I think indies should drop the old model of doing a monthly series. Instead, they should start making self-contained books. It would go like this:

1. Make a graphic novel that could stand on its own as a complete story. It would be like a movie, except in graphic novel form.
2. After they've already created the entire graphic, then they either sell it all at once, or serialize it in installments.
3. If they wanna make a sequel, they can. Either like the James Bond movies, where there isn't set chronological order. Or like a series of sequels with chronology.

Question: who gets paid while they are making it a graphic?

Answer: who gets paid when a series book gets abruptly cancelled or delayed? The team is already making a pittance or losing money from the series anyway. Why not try the graphic novel route. The graphic novel route's main objective is to stop delays and cancellations mid-story. Creators could save up money for the graphic novel before doing it rather than expecting to be paid via sales by starting a story that might be delayed or cancelled. Creators might not be making money immediately with the graphic novel route. But they are gaining money and an audience by having a completed story to sell to the public before they publish it. As it is, many creators who do series are not only losing money from these cancellations and delays, they are also losing a good reputation. Indies now are gaining a bad rep because of the delays and cancellations. The creators themselves can have a bad rep. Jay Faerber is now amongst the people who has many fans saying, "I'll think twice before I start reading one of his comics."

[Drunk Viking]

I still feel there's legitimacy to the frustrations of these delayed comics. Especially from Jay Faerber; just look at what happened to his 'Near Death' series.