What are things you dislike about the comic book fandom?

[Trey Strain]

So making it like it's real world problems?

Everything isn't good vs. evil. In fact most disputes aren't.

[hedgehogvampire]

People saying Marvel sucks or DC sucks.
A person can be a fan of both but if not this is attempting to make it like its a bad blood sports rivalry the Jets Patriots, Volunteers Gators, 49ers Seahawks, Titans Steelers, or the trashtalk of WWE.

It's very juvenile, utterly unneccesary, and incredibly sad.

Yes I totally agree with this. Its totally cool if you like both Marvel and DC the same or even like one more then the other but the whole petty arguments over who's better is, like what you said unnecessary and sad. That being said I do get a bit of enjoyment from reading their anger at each other from time to time. XD

[Crazy Diamond]

I said in my original post that I just thought the reaction to Nazi Cap was more understandable, not that it was good in itself, and it was a little more understandable because "Nazi Cap" it sounds a lot stupider than "Kamala Khan turns into a white lady." The first sounds tailor-made to irritate fans for no reason but to make waves-- and maybe money-- while the second is so out-of-tune with current social mores that a discriminating reader ought to think, "this is not going to be a regular thing."

Since I define a liberal as being someone who believes in the greatest possible literary freedom, it's quite possible you're right with your last rejoinder.

It's still fans overreacting to comic book stories. I don't see how it's stupid when it's Ms. Marvel but okay when it's Captain America

Your definition of liberal is an odd one and doesn't match up with the history of liberalism.

[ouroboros]

Ok, but I find it odd that in order to illustrate your original point, instead of using any of the number of more prominent examples where fans have jumped the gun on either comics or pop culture, you picked something really obscure. Especially considering that Ms Marvel #1 had many other people making unfounded assumptions over other aspects of the comic.

What are these numerically superior unfounded assumptions to which you refer? I think it must be what you reference in post #551:

There where way more folks going on about "PC Agendas" before the first issue of Ms Marvel came out than there was of people complaining about the cliffhanger of issue one "marginalizing" her.

I don't have a problem with critiquing the fans who are knee-jerk anti-diversity, just as I don't have a problem with critiquing the fans who are knee-jerk pro-diversity. (I still remember the poster from some months back who asserted that the James Bond production company must be racist if they didn't have Idris Elba play Bond.)

But on both sides, the knee-jerkies are automatically attacking something for the mere presence or absence of diverse characters. It has nothing to do with interpreting how the elements of the story work together, and that's what was going on with the guy who automatically assumed that Kamala's "walk on the Caucasian side" was meant to derogate people of color.

FWIW, Caucasians can be just as prone to make "rushes to judgment" based on what makes them feel uncomfortable. On a purely personal (and thus unrecorded) note, I remember talking to an older white comics-reader back when Roy Thomas' INVADERS was on the shelves. He was not happy that Thomas had included a plotline that touched on Japanese internment in America, but he couldn't give me any good reason why it was a bad plotline. That too would be a "rush to judgment" after one has read the story in question.

[ouroboros]

It's still fans overreacting to comic book stories. I don't see how it's stupid when it's Ms. Marvel but okay when it's Captain America

Your definition of liberal is an odd one and doesn't match up with the history of liberalism.

I think that anyone concerned about identity politics, as in the post I cited, ought to know that a big company like Marvel is not going to hurt itself with the very audience it's courting, by having its Pakistanti-American heroine turn into a white woman on a regular basis. YMMV.

In contrast, while I didn't dismiss the (small) possibility that someone might actually get a half-decent story out of a "Nazi Cap Big Reveal," on the face of it, it sounds to my ears like a publicity stunt, especially given the creator swearing up and down that this was the absolute, swear-on-a-copy-of-Marvel-Origins truth about Captain America. So I don't consider it as silly to get irritated at an apparent publicity ploy, though it is silly to waste a lot of time protesting a development that will probably be written away by next year.

[The Darknight Detective]

I dislike whatever neurosis it is that makes fans think publishers WANT any of their franchises/characters to fail, and proceeds to exert money and effort to make it happen.*

... or that they prop up their favorites regardless of how it effects the company's bottom line.

[ed2962]

What are these numerically superior unfounded assumptions to which you refer? I think it must be what you reference in post #551:

Many of them were here on CBR. More than a couple of people were saying things like, "Marvel's trying too hard to be PC," "This comic will be about how racist America is," "It will be cancelled quickly because minorities don't sell" etc

I don't have a problem with critiquing the fans who are knee-jerk anti-diversity, just as I don't have a problem with critiquing the fans who are knee-jerk pro-diversity.

I'm not so sure these are two sides of the same coin? What is "knee jerk pro-diversity?"

(I still remember the poster from some months back who asserted that the James Bond production company must be racist if they didn't have Idris Elba play Bond.)

But on both sides, the knee-jerkies are automatically attacking something for the mere presence or absence of diverse characters. It has nothing to do with interpreting how the elements of the story work together, and that's what was going on with the guy who automatically assumed that Kamala's "walk on the Caucasian side" was meant to derogate people of color.

But again, you can't use one person's extreme reaction as typical of the majority of people on the "other side."

[The Darknight Detective]

I only really noticed when someone complained about Ms. Marvel's costume and their specific criticisms were that it wasn't sexy like the classic Ms. Marvel's and that it covered up too much skin. I was wondering why you'd even care about a teenager not being sexy enough.

Yeah, I have no problems with fans who want their favorite adult characters to have copious amounts of cheesecake in their comic books, but when we're debating about whether or not teenage Kara Zor-El's panties should be on display...

[GreenLanternRanger]

Cheescake is not and has never been nessecary for a good story. The people that read comics for such are in the medium for the wrong reasons. And as said, wanting to oversexualize an underage girl is just creepy!

[ed2962]

Cheescake is not and has never been nessecary for a good story. The people that read comics for such are in the medium for the wrong reasons. And as said, wanting to oversexualize an underage girl is just creepy!

I wouldn't go as far as to say that people who like cheesecake shouldn't be in comics. Comics can be about anything from superheroes to historical documentary to satire to surrealism. Sexy babes shouldn't be off limits. My issue is usually with where it's being done and how it's being done. Howard Chaykin drawing escorts in garters in his creator owned series is awesome. If he were to start drawing Sue Richards or Supergirl that way, I'd have an issue with it.

[The Darknight Detective]

I wouldn't go as far as to say that people who like cheesecake shouldn't be in comics. Comics can be about anything from superheroes to historical documentary to satire to surrealism. Sexy babes shouldn't be off limits. My issue is usually with where it's being done and how it's being done. Howard Chaykin drawing escorts in garters in his creator owned series is awesome. If he were to start drawing Sue Richards or Supergirl that way, I'd have an issue with it.

IOW, it depends on the context.

[GreenLanternRanger]

I wouldn't go as far as to say that people who like cheesecake shouldn't be in comics. Comics can be about anything from superheroes to historical documentary to satire to surrealism. Sexy babes shouldn't be off limits. My issue is usually with where it's being done and how it's being done. Howard Chaykin drawing escorts in garters in his creator owned series is awesome. If he were to start drawing Sue Richards or Supergirl that way, I'd have an issue with it.

I agree at the end of the day its all about context. Sadly lots of fans of media in general don't seem to understand there is a difference between Sexy and sexist/creepy.

[Trey Strain]

... or that they prop up their favorites regardless of how it effects the company's bottom line.

Arguing with a straight face that the company should do things of should not do them with no regard as to whether they'll make money. The idea that DC Comics is all about them and their personal tastes.

And even that DC shouldn't do something or other because it'll "force" them to spend too much money on comics!

[codystarbuck]

... or that they prop up their favorites regardless of how it effects the company's bottom line.

There is an element of truth in that, as history has shown. Not the company as a whole; but, there are forces within publishers who do want to see something fail because it makes a rival vulnerable. 70s Marvel had a lot of that going on, behind the scenes, and other people have described similar behaviors at DC, at different times. It's office politics played out with the product. Much like movies where the studio dumps it on the market, with little or no marketing and it fails; then use the failure to say they were right all along and let's not try that again. That ignores that they didn't try to market it and created a self-fulfilling prophecy. It happens in publishing, including comics. It doesn't happen as much as some fins complain; but, it does occur. Kirby was actively sabotaged and badmouthed after he returned to Marvel. That's been recorded and verified. That's not to say Kirby was in tune with a large segment of the Marvel audience; but, the powers that be weren't exactly trying to help the audience understand what Kirby was trying to do and filling his books with negative comment letters, despite having letters praising it, didn't help it.

[ouroboros]

Many of them were here on CBR. More than a couple of people were saying things like, "Marvel's trying too hard to be PC," "This comic will be about how racist America is," "It will be cancelled quickly because minorities don't sell" etc




I'm not so sure these are two sides of the same coin? What is "knee jerk pro-diversity?"



But again, you can't use one person's extreme reaction as typical of the majority of people on the "other side."

(1) You're not saying anything different here than you said in the earlier post I cited, so what is your point in rephrasing?

(2) I gave you an example; if you can't see its application that's not my fault.

(3) Haven't done that; am continuing to critique trends, not absolute defining characteristics.