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  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beezzi View Post
    This book is tragic for a lead X-title. Lacklustre plotting and character development. Really, I didn't think things could get any worse after the last two years.

    Marvel needs to boot this book to the bottom of the X-pile and give us a new lead title with a more interesting line-up and better focus.
    Give Lemire's Animal Man a snooze.

  2. #47
    Grizzled Veteran Jackraow21's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beezzi View Post
    Wow full marks for snarky reply.

    Really you're gonna defend what's going on here? Really? You're totally fine with the message this book sends? No scratchy feeling in the back of your skull that tells you this is a bit wrong? That maybe there was a better, more mature way this sensitive subject matter could've been handled? This is the proper way? Lemire chose the best possible way to address this?

    (Keep in mind that Bunn is drawing straight-up WWII comparisions in Uncanny. So there's no defence in saying that this was not the intention of this franchise wide arc.)

    If the base subject matter was lighter? Maybe, but this has moved into a very murky area.

    Look we both know why you're defending this - it's not worth it. You're usually one of the more sensible posters. OML isn't worth it defending this.
    I didn't defend anything. Or condemn it. Simply commented on the complaints about the X-books being "lackluster, needing a different lineup, and more focus" being consistent over the past ten years. My feelings on this title are that it's "okay." Not great, but not awful IMO.

    As for your outrage over the "message this book sends" with regards to genocide and ethnic cleansing, hasn't that been going on in the X-books for a long time now? All the way back to Morrison's run with the death of 12 million mutants on Genosha. Actually, all the way back to the original Days of Future Past in the 80s. So you'll forgive me if I'm not losing any sleep over this latest turn.

    This ain't the best X-men comic I've ever read. But it also ain't the worst. That's about as much emotion as I can muster over this title.

    Oh, but I do hate the f@#$ing Inhumans. With a passion. They suck donkey butt.
    Last edited by Jackraow21; 01-21-2016 at 10:56 PM.

  3. #48
    Veteran Member Beezzi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jackraow21 View Post
    I didn't defend anything. Or condemn it. Simply commented on the complaints about the X-books being "lackluster, needing a different lineup, and more focus" being consistent over the past ten years. My feelings on this title are that it's "okay." Not great, but not awful IMO.

    As for your outrage over the "message this book sends" with regards to genocide and ethnic cleansing, hasn't that been going on in the X-books for a long time now? All the way back to Morrison's run with the death of 12 million mutants on Genosha. Actually, all the way back to the original Days of Future Past in the 80s. So you'll forgive me if I'm not losing any freaking sleep over this latest turn in my favorite comic book franchise.

    Like I said, it ain't the best X-men comic I've ever read. But it also ain't the worst. That's about as much emotion as you'll get out of me on the title.

    Oh, but I do hate the f@#$ing Inhumans. With a passion. They suck donkey butt.
    We've been saying it for 10 years and for most of that we've been spot on. The bright moments are a lot fewer, so don't just dismiss it. That's how we ended up here.

    Difference? Good writers never tried to simple discuss it in super-hero terms. Lemire is trying to soft soak the issue so not to make anyone look bad. He isn't addressing anything in real world terms. So now we're stuck with an incredibly muddled tone, some mindboggling subplots and an overly bloated cast - who seem like they just can't relate to each other in a natural way. Everything feels forced.

    There were choices here - no one forced anyone down this road. This didn't have to be the 'thing' for this series. Someone made a choice to use genocide as a cheap plot device for hype. Bunn is at least trying to address the real world connotations - he's not pussyfooting around it. But then his book is the more 'mature' title.

    And why does not being the worse book ever make it ok (this is arguable btw)? Since when is that something X-fans are OK with? We're now settling for below avarage? How far below average is too far?

    Amazing X-Men? Well, it isn't great, but it's not the worse. All New and it's all white cast, it's not great, but my fave character got all the spotlight! Storm? Yeah, it's one of the most mediocre solos ever, but at least she got a solo, right?

    If we never ask for more, this is all we'll ever get from the lead books. It's becoming a trend now. It's fine for lower tier titles, but not for the books that are suppose to draw non-hardcore readers in. I'm sick of the lead books getting away with murder. How is this any different from what Bendis did? Simply, because we like Lemire more?

    Lemire isn't a bad writer even - he's just not comfortable with the subject matter. Things just aren't clicking and no one with a lick of sense can claim that this is a resounding success and should happily continue down this path.

    So yeah, I vote we ditch this puppy and demand a better lead title!
    Last edited by Beezzi; 01-21-2016 at 11:45 PM.

  4. #49
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    The problem is we really don't have as much leverage as before. Writing letters does stuff but it will be a year before any of it changes things. The problem is that there are clear decisions that are being done that have nothing to do with growing the franchise. I don't just mean by number of books. Everything for the X-men is regressive right now. It has been since before avx.

  5. #50
    Veteran Member Beezzi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arya View Post
    The problem is we really don't have as much leverage as before. Writing letters does stuff but it will be a year before any of it changes things. The problem is that there are clear decisions that are being done that have nothing to do with growing the franchise. I don't just mean by number of books. Everything for the X-men is regressive right now. It has been since before avx.
    We don't have as much power anymore, because Marvel no longer really needs solely X-Men fans' money to stay afloat. They need us...just not as much as before. But just because we do t have the same bargaining power, doesn't mean we know just give up fighting for better content.

    Regression seems to be a trend right now. The lead titles aren't moving forward. They're not trying anything new or daring to do anything interesting.

    There's so many options for doing great books. Some creativity and not mining the same ol' well every year and we'll have way better lead books.

    (I'm exempting the 'fringe' titles, because they seem to be at least daring to create something different. It's better to risk and fall, than to have never risk at all.)
    Last edited by Beezzi; 01-22-2016 at 12:14 AM.

  6. #51
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    To be fair it's not their fault. The current X-men malaise has been planned for over a year. Until they get rid of some higher ups this is how mutants will be treated.

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beezzi View Post
    We've been saying it for 10 years and for most of that we've been spot on. The bright moments are a lot fewer, so don't just dismiss it. That's how we ended up here.

    Difference? Good writers never tried to simple discuss it in super-hero terms. Lemire is trying to soft soak the issue so not to make anyone look bad. He isn't addressing anything in real world terms. So now we're stuck with an incredibly muddled tone, some mindboggling subplots and an overly bloated cast - who seem like they just can't relate to each other in a natural way. Everything feels forced.

    There were choices here - no one forced anyone down this road. This didn't have to be the 'thing' for this series. Someone made a choice to use genocide as a cheap plot device for hype. Bunn is at least trying to address the real world connotations - he's not pussyfooting around it. But then his book is the more 'mature' title.

    And why does not being the worse book ever make it ok (this is arguable btw)? Since when is that something X-fans are OK with? We're now settling for below avarage? How far below average is too far?

    Amazing X-Men? Well, it isn't great, but it's not the worse. All New and it's all white cast, it's not great, but my fave character got all the spotlight! Storm? Yeah, it's one of the most mediocre solos ever, but at least she got a solo, right?

    If we never ask for more, this is all we'll ever get from the lead books. It's becoming a trend now. It's fine for lower tier titles, but not for the books that are suppose to draw non-hardcore readers in. I'm sick of the lead books getting away with murder. How is this any different from what Bendis did? Simply, because we like Lemire more?

    Lemire isn't a bad writer even - he's just not comfortable with the subject matter. Things just aren't clicking and no one with a lick of sense can claim that this is a resounding success and should happily continue down this path.

    So yeah, I vote we ditch this puppy and demand a better lead title!
    Well, given that people kept complaining about the X-writers making the rest of the Marvel Universe look bad............................................... ....

    Anyways, our only choices these days are either cancellation or keep going.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beezzi View Post
    We don't have as much power anymore, because Marvel no longer really needs solely X-Men fans' money to stay afloat. They need us...just not as much as before.

    Regression seems to be a trend right now. The lead titles aren't moving forward. They're not trying anything new or daring to do anything interesting.

    There's so many options for doing great books. Some creativity and not mining the same ol' well every year and we'll have way better lead books.
    Well, you know, Alonso said in a interview like two weeks ago that the FF dont have a book anymore because their fans are not passionate anymore, and given that the X-men are in the same boat, we either kept supporting these books or we say goodbye to the X-men until Disney can get deal for the FOX-owned Star Wars stuff.

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by dragonmp93 View Post

    Well, you know, Alonso said in a interview like two weeks ago that the FF dont have a book anymore because their fans are not passionate anymore
    I think with the X-Men fans will soon be a similar thing. In this forum, it is now a little X-Men fans. I see basically the same people in different themes. It is 20-30 people. One year ago was several times more. The same blogs, facebook, tumblr and reddit. The interest of the fans has fallen dramatically.

  9. #54
    Veteran Member Galerion's Avatar
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    I get the feeling that after the Apocalypse stuff is over Old Man Logan and All-New Wolverine will be the only X-books I will be following. It's pretty clear to me that way more effort, passion, resources and talent are put into those two books than the team ones. OML and ANW get Sorrentino and Lopez while UXM and EXM get Land and Ramos just as an example of that. In hindsight it shouldn't have been surprising considering these two were the only X-characters to appear on Marvels ANAD material.
    And the best thing about them? They ignore the BS that is going through the team books. They stand on their own and tell their own unique stories and they are way better for it. No mysterious mist, no Cyclops whining, no out-of-character behavior and so on.
    Sure All-New X-Men tries to do that too to an extent too but that book has a few other problems instead.

    It's sad since these books contain other characters I also care about like Magik but they are stuck and they will be until changes happen down the line. I for one am tired of wasting money on stuff hoping it will get better in the future. That was exactly what happened with Bendis and you don't fool me twice. If I don't enjoy it things will get dropped.
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  10. #55
    Astonishing Member harashkupo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Galerion View Post
    I get the feeling that after the Apocalypse stuff is over Old Man Logan and All-New Wolverine will be the only X-books I will be following. It's pretty clear to me that way more effort, passion, resources and talent are put into those two books than the team ones. OML and ANW get Sorrentino and Lopez while UXM and EXM get Land and Ramos just as an example of that. In hindsight it shouldn't have been surprising considering these two were the only X-characters to appear on Marvels ANAD material.
    And the best thing about them? They ignore the BS that is going through the team books. They stand on their own and tell their own unique stories and they are way better for it. No mysterious mist, no Cyclops whining, no out-of-character behavior and so on.
    Sure All-New X-Men tries to do that too to an extent too but that book has a few other problems instead.

    It's sad since these books contain other characters I also care about like Magik but they are stuck and they will be until changes happen down the line. I for one am tired of wasting money on stuff hoping it will get better in the future. That was exactly what happened with Bendis and you don't fool me twice. If I don't enjoy it things will get dropped.
    Yeah I feel you on this. Especially the bolded since it enables the writers more freedom.
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  11. #56
    Veteran Member Beezzi's Avatar
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    For those supporting the mutant cause by buying a book they don't seem to like...you know we have other X-titles right? You don't have to buy this one. Anyway buying Ex-Men is still kinda supporting the UnMutant cause in a way.

    (Just don't buy ANXM either. The Bore5 have truly outlived their welcome. Someone give Hellion, Pixie, Rockslide, Roxy and the rest of the squad their book back! And add Amiko in - she deserves a place in the bloody franchise after Logan's death.)

    I'm hopeful that Bunn will come through for us in Uncanny. He's at least trying in the system and it's not an overblown, over marketed hype fest of evil. He could be a good lead X-writer - seems to have an actual knack for the X-content. Just need to get him to loosen his grip on Mags.

    Or if Nicieza wants his ol' job back for awhile I would not complain.
    Last edited by Beezzi; 01-22-2016 at 02:28 AM.

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beezzi View Post
    For those supporting the mutant cause by buying a book they don't seem to like...you know we have other X-titles right? You don't have to buy this one. Anyway buying Ex-Men is still kinda supporting the UnMutant cause in a way.

    (Just don't buy ANXM either. The Bore5 have truly outlived their welcome. Someone give Hellion, Pixie, Rockslide, Roxy and the rest of the squad their book back! And add Amiko in - she deserves a place in the bloody franchise after Logan's death.)

    I'm hopeful that Bunn will come through for us in Uncanny. He's at least trying in the system and it's not an overblown, over marketed hype fest of evil. He could be a good lead X-writer - seems to have an actual knack for the X-content. Just need to get him to loosen his grip on Mags.

    Or if Nicieza wants his ol' job back for awhile I would not complain.
    Well, im pretty sure that the cast of these books is all that is left of the mutant race, plus some cannon fodder.

    And i think that buying ANY X-books is supporting them anyway, i bet ten bucks that Marvel is using the profit of the X-books to keep going the Inhuman books.

    P.S. I do like Extraordinary.

  13. #58
    Veteran Member Beezzi's Avatar
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    If you like Ex-Men, you really need to stop complaining about Marvel's treatment of the X-Men. This book is basically the a love letter to bad Marvel editorial ideas and the Inhumans.

    It's the idea behind the book you're supporting, I don't think buying a copy of ''Worst X-Men Ever" sends the same message to Marvel.

    This is why Marvel says the fanbase can't make up it's minds...*sigh*

    But don't worry...it's been five seconds, Storm's due another melodramatic speech about 'survival/mutants/Inhumans/blah/blah, and that'll make everyone feel better.
    Last edited by Beezzi; 01-22-2016 at 07:06 AM.

  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beezzi View Post
    If you like Ex-Men, you really need to stop complaining about Marvel's treatment of the X-Men. This book is basically the a love letter to bad Marvel editorial ideas and the Inhumans.

    It's the idea behind the book you're supporting, I don't think buying a copy of ''Worst X-Men Ever" sends the same message to Marvel.

    This is why Marvel says the fanbase can't make up it's minds...*sigh*

    But don't worry...it's been five seconds, Storm's due another melodramatic speech about 'survival/mutants/Inhumans/blah/blah, and that'll make everyone feel better.
    How many times has she said "To me, my X-Men" so far? Three times? But the Storm fanbase is easily pleased so she'll probably say it a bunch of times more.

  15. #60
    Grizzled Veteran Jackraow21's Avatar
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    Personally I find all of the X-team books to be lackluster right now. EXM has the cast I'm most interested in, but it's pretty "meh" to me. And the art doesn't help. Speaking of bad art, UXM to me has the worst artist in Land. His traced stuff just does nothing for me. At least Ramos has some style, though his panels are very hit or miss. And the writing on UXM is...okay. Enough to keep me following, but nothing riveting IMO. All New X-men is probably the best written as far as I'm concerned, but has the cast that by far I'm least interested in. In my mind it's high past time for the time-displaced 05 to find their way back home.

    So why am I buying them all? As someone else said, this is all we're gonna get. If sales drop way off then I truly believe Marvel will send the X-men team books the way of the Fantastic Four comic series. Plus it's not much money. We're talking about like $10-15 per month.

    But I'm not reading anything else besides OML, All New Wolverine and Uncanny Avengers (my guilty pleasure book because it has Deadpool and Cable, plus Rogue; and unfortunately this so-called Avengers book is my favorite book of the ANAD Marvel line now). So I'm voting with my wallet and only supporting the X-stuff, as lackluster as it may be.

    Like I said before, though, it's not like this is a new thing. The X-men book have been lackluster pretty much on and off since Morrison's run. Maybe Whedon's, though I went back and read that run and liked it far less the second time around. Sure, there have been bright spots. Loved the Mike Carey X-men run, the Kyle/Yost X-Force and Remender Uncanny X-Force runs, Gillen's X-Tinction team run was pretty good...plus the crossovers like Messiah War and Second Coming. But from AvX onwards the X-books haven't done a whole lot for me unfortunately. But I stick with them. A glutton for punishment perhaps, but IMO it's better than having them shelved completely like the FF.

    A sad state of affairs indeed...but it's not like the rest of the ANAD Marvel line is any less lackluster IMO. So I'm not really missing anything there.

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